New Name Noah's Brother

[_Res Ipsa]

I am not talking about arguing, but about understanding. LDS just say, like MG did, that the Christian understanding is based on the creeds, which is just not true, especially in regards to evangelicals.

Like I told MG, "right or wrong" I can take him past the standard LDS talking point and show him what i and others believe and in context why we believe it.

Markk, whether MG takes you up on your offer or not, I’d be interested to hear what you have to say on this topic. Maybe up in Celestial?

[_RockSlider]

Markk,

What is your take on Bart D. Ehrman and Robert M. Price? Can you point me to any good debates between either of these two and a Historian you might suggest at their level only orthodox believing?

[_Markk]

Markk,

What is your take on Bart D. Ehrman and Robert M. Price? Can you point me to any good debates between either of these two and a Historian you might suggest at their level only orthodox believing?

My take is that Bart is a man who lost his faith, like most the folks here. I have no idea about Price, other than he does not believe in a historical Christ, or any debates these guys have been in.

It is almost impossible to debate a atheist on ones faith, in that faith is not really tangible, it is very intimate and personal. It is like debating ones love for sports, with a person that could care less about sports.

In regards of evidences for by faith, I believe there are plenty which serve as a basis for my faith.

Your question is leading I get that, I can only guess you have lost your faith, and that's okay, I am not here to convert anyone. But hopefully MG will take me up on discussing this, and if not I will share my journey from Mormonism to Christianity in regards to theology and faith...baiscally what I believe and why I believe it.

I understand I can't win a "debate" on the existence of a God with a forum full of atheists (which I consider good people and friends)...but I can share what I believe and why I believe it, and why I no longer believe the LDS faith.

[_Craig Paxton]

This is a copy of a post I posted on a Mormon site:

I have no interest in this forum per se, however I'd like to share with Mormons some of the things that have been done by Mormons to those who oppose them (and I'm not talking about Mountain Meadows Massacre). Mormons are always screaming about persecution, blah, blah, blah. However, what about the things Mormons do on the internet. I posted on CARM for many years, addressing a number of cults, and also Anglicanism (I'm an Anglican). As an Anglican, I'm used to dealing intellectually with issues, and when it comes to Mormonism, my opinion has always been cut off the snake's head and the body will die. Joseph Smith is the allegorical "head" of the cult, and I have always strived to present Smith as he really was: a peodphile,

Sorry you lost me when you called Smith a peodiphile

[_mentalgymnast]

But hopefully MG will take me up on discussing this, and if not I will share my journey from Mormonism to Christianity in regards to theology and faith...baiscally what I believe and why I believe it.

Hi Markk,

I do have one question. Is the Jesus of your flavor of Christianity the Jesus of 'saved by grace' rather than the 'saved by grace after all we can do' ? Is your Jesus the Evangelical/Baptist Jesus? That may be a simple question with a complex answer from your point of view...but a simple stripped down answer?

I don't want to take this question...its answer...and its possible offshoots down a path on this thread...but I would be curious to know what your answer is in regards to this question before I would entertain an interest in learning more about your views on Christ, etc.

Regards,
MG

[Guest]

Markk,

What is your take on Bart D. Ehrman and Robert M. Price? Can you point me to any good debates between either of these two and a Historian you might suggest at their level only orthodox believing?

My take is that Bart is a man who lost his faith, like most the folks here. I have no idea about Price, other than he does not believe in a historical Christ, or any debates these guys have been in.

It is almost impossible to debate a atheist on ones faith, in that faith is not really tangible, it is very intimate and personal. It is like debating ones love for sports, with a person that could care less about sports.

In regards of evidences for by faith, I believe there are plenty which serve as a basis for my faith.

Your question is leading I get that, I can only guess you have lost your faith, and that's okay, I am not here to convert anyone. But hopefully MG will take me up on discussing this, and if not I will share my journey from Mormonism to Christianity in regards to theology and faith...baiscally what I believe and why I believe it.

I understand I can't win a "debate" on the existence of a God with a forum full of atheists (which I consider good people and friends)...but I can share what I believe and why I believe it, and why I no longer believe the LDS faith.

Please do share, Markk, I think it would be quite interesting to read your story.

[_Markk]

Hi Markk,

I do have one question. Is the Jesus of your flavor of Christianity the Jesus of 'saved by grace' rather than the 'saved by grace after all we can do' ? Is your Jesus the Evangelical/Baptist Jesus? That may be a simple question with a complex answer from your point of view...but a simple stripped down answer?

I don't want to take this question...its answer...and its possible offshoots down a path on this thread...but I would be curious to know what your answer is in regards to this question before I would entertain an interest in learning more about your views on Christ, etc.

Regards,
MG

Hey MG,

Well okay, but your question in my view is redundant. In that the former is a Christian view, and the latter is a LDS view...one from Eph 2 in most versions of the Bible, and the other from the JST.

But to answer your question...I know my heart, and I know what I and others are capable of. Look at our world. I know I could never be what the church said I had to be in order to be truly saved. No matter how hard I tried.

I honestly believe, right or wrong, sensible or far reaching, that there is absolutely nothing I can do to earn, merit, or purchase, in regards to my salvation, that Jesus did not do on the cross.

Does that relieve me from following His commandments and ways? No...not at all, but again, I also don't have to struggle and pretend to be something else on Sundays, and yet be like everyone else Monday through Saturday.

I believe God looks at us like we look at our children. He knows our hearts and who we are just like a parent watching us growing up...our children can't fake us out on who they are, and like wise, I don't think we can fool God on who we are.

I can go on and on...but I hope you chose to engage with me on this subject. let me know, either way I will start a thread soon. Remember I am not trying to convert you, I know I can't, but I would like to let you know what Christians actually believe, beyond the conditioned talking points that we were/are taught in the church.

[_kairos]

[quote="Markk"][quote="mentalgymnast"]
Hi Markk,

I do have one question. Is the Jesus of your flavor of Christianity the Jesus of 'saved by grace' rather than the 'saved by grace after all we can do' ? Is your Jesus the Evangelical/Baptist Jesus? That may be a simple question with a complex answer from your point of view...but a simple stripped down answer?



" I honestly believe, right or wrong, sensible or far reaching, that there is absolutely nothing I can do to earn, merit, or purchase, in regards to my salvation, that Jesus did not do on the cross."


Markk-A big Amen to your sentence above! I would delete "right or wrong, sensible or far reaching" in your statement.
k

[_mentalgymnast]

I know my heart, and I know what I and others are capable of. Look at our world. I know I could never be what the church said I had to be in order to be truly saved. No matter how hard I tried.

I honestly believe, right or wrong, sensible or far reaching, that there is absolutely nothing I can do to earn, merit, or purchase, in regards to my salvation, that Jesus did not do on the cross.

OK. Thanks for that. We would have a basic philosophical disconnect at the outset. My natural instinct is to think that human beings are capable of awesome things. God wants us to achieve beyond what we might think is our potential. Working and struggling to work towards a more perfect state...following the Master...helps us in moving towards a state of happinesss knowing that we are reaching or moving towards our goal. That is, to become more like God and His Son.

Does that relieve me from following His commandments and ways? No...not at all, but again, I also don't have to struggle and pretend to be something else on Sundays, and yet be like everyone else Monday through Saturday.

I hear what you're saying, but I think that approaching it from this perspective is limiting. God wants...and encourages us...to be more than we naturally can be on our own. He will judge us on our own merits (the parable of the talents) as we follow in the footsteps of the Savior.

I believe God looks at us like we look at our children. He knows our hearts and who we are just like a parent watching us growing up...our children can't fake us out on who they are, and like wise, I don't think we can fool God on who we are.

I totally agree. But I think that God also knows what we CAN be. To put it ALL on Jesus Christ is unreasonable in my opinion. I think that we, in order to progress, need to act and not just be acted upon by external factors (i.e. Jesus has done it all and we don't merit anything on our own).

I can go on and on...but I hope you chose to engage with me on this subject. let me know, either way I will start a thread soon.

I am familiar with evangelical teachings in regards to grace and views on Christ's atonement. At least to the extent that I know, for me, that it doesn't seem to dovetail with my instinctive understanding that I'm here on earth to be pushed and prodded (sometimes) towards perfection even when I feel and believe that I'm not worthy or able.

Remember I am not trying to convert you, I know I can't, but I would like to let you know what Christians actually believe, beyond the conditioned talking points that we were/are taught in the church.

You're most welcome to share your understanding of Christ's mission and atonement for mankind, but honestly, I believe that the LDS church's teachings in regards to eternal progression and Christ's teachings in regards to salvation fit the bill insofar as dovetailing Biblical teachings with those in the Book of Mormon and D&C.

But I wish you well, brother, as you strive to live according to the gospel of Jesus Christ and the understanding you have of what that entails.

Regards,
MG

[_Lemmie]

....either way I will start a thread soon. Remember I am not trying to convert you, I know I can't, but I would like to let you know what Christians actually believe, beyond the conditioned talking points that we were/are taught in the church.

That would be an interesting read. Re lds 'talking points,' it wasn't until I left the lds church that I realized just how conditioned the typical lds really is, and how little religion is actually known and understood by the average lds. That conditioning is pretty simplistic as far as theology goes, but lds tend to be so isolated that I don't think it is even realized by most.