New Name Noah's Brother

[_honorentheos]

Markk,

What is your take on Bart D. Ehrman and Robert M. Price? Can you point me to...a Historian you might suggest at their level only orthodox believing?

Bruce Metzger comes first to mind.

[Guest]

....either way I will start a thread soon. Remember I am not trying to convert you, I know I can't, but I would like to let you know what Christians actually believe, beyond the conditioned talking points that we were/are taught in the church.

That would be an interesting read. Re LDS 'talking points,' it wasn't until I left the LDS church that I realized just how conditioned the typical LDS really is, and how little religion is actually known and understood by the average LDS. That conditioning is pretty simplistic as far as theology goes, but LDS tend to be so isolated that I don't think it is even realized by most.

Gospel training as a child. Seminary as a youth. Institute in young adulthood. Granted, not all people go through all three stages of church/gospel education, but those that do understand the rudiments of their religion. Deeper doctrines and past policies and all the 'juicy' stuff? Maybe not. But being conditioned/educated/encouraged to live the gospel, gain a testimony of Christ and His atonement, and develop a desire to obey God's commandments isn't such a bad thing.

Regards,
MG

[_honorentheos]

Gospel training as a child. Seminary as a youth. Institute in young adulthood. Granted, not all people go through all three stages of church/gospel education, but those that do understand the rudiments of their religion.

How would you explain the relationship of the atonement to exaltation to someone who lacked an LDS background but was Bible-literate, MG?

[_Res Ipsa]

....either way I will start a thread soon. Remember I am not trying to convert you, I know I can't, but I would like to let you know what Christians actually believe, beyond the conditioned talking points that we were/are taught in the church.

That would be an interesting read. Re LDS 'talking points,' it wasn't until I left the LDS church that I realized just how conditioned the typical LDS really is, and how little religion is actually known and understood by the average LDS. That conditioning is pretty simplistic as far as theology goes, but LDS tend to be so isolated that I don't think it is even realized by most.

That’s been my experience as well.

[_mentalgymnast]

Gospel training as a child. Seminary as a youth. Institute in young adulthood. Granted, not all people go through all three stages of church/gospel education, but those that do understand the rudiments of their religion.

How would you explain the relationship of the atonement to exaltation to someone who lacked an LDS background but was Bible-literate, MG?

At a rudimentary level. Maybe starting with a scripture from the New Testament:

“In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.”
John 14:2

I would put forth the idea that Jesus Christ's atonement 'covers' and/or involves everyone who has ever lived and that as a result we all come to earth to work out our salvation and Jesus has gone before us to prepare a "place for you".

I'd keep it simple.

Regards,
MG

[_honorentheos]

How would you explain the relationship of the atonement to exaltation to someone who lacked an LDS background but was Bible-literate, MG?

At a rudimentary level. Maybe starting with a scripture from the New Testament:

“In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.”
John 14:2

I would put forth the idea that Jesus Christ's atonement 'covers' and/or involves everyone who has ever lived and that as a result we all come to earth to work out our salvation and Jesus has gone before us to prepare a "place for you".

I'd keep it simple.

Regards,
MG

I'm not sure I picked up on how this explains the relationship of the atonement to the LDS idea of exaltation. You say that Jesus' atonement covers or involves everyone who ever lived, then you shift to the idea that people work out their salvation. Maybe this isn't so much simple as not actually hanging together as a cohesive idea quite yet?

I mean, if a bible-literate person wanted to really get why LDS have this idea that exaltation is a thing, that it involves temples, and just believing in Christ isn't sufficient to get one to exaltation whatever that may be, how did you paint a picture for them with the above that doesn't just sound like "Jesus saves"?

[_mentalgymnast]

I'm not sure I picked up on how this explains the relationship of the atonement to the LDS idea of exaltation.

Many mansions infers that there may be a house for you and a house for me. A house for everyone. Whether or not all of those houses are identical clones of each other is debatable. But the door is open at that point to discuss salvation based on faith and works and that there will be a judgement. Many Christians are on board with that. Christ's atonement is that which makes possible being saved in any condition.

It's not rocket science, honor.

I'm not sure that I would want you trying to explain anything to a 'newbie' from Biblical Christianity. I think you'd blow them out of the water before they ever have a chance to believe.

Milk before meat. Keep it simple.

[Kierkegaard] was against an individual waiting until certain of God's love and salvation before beginning to try to become a Christian. He defined this as a "special type of religious conflict the Germans call Anfechtung" (contesting or disputing). In Kierkegaard's view the Church should not try to prove Christianity or even defend it. It should help the single individual to make a leap of faith, the faith that God is love and has a task for that very same single individual.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B8ren_Kierkegaard

I think that as LDS missionaries come across those that have Biblical Christianity as their guide, as the plan of salvation and later exaltation is placed before them they will...in many cases..."make a leap of faith" in understanding/accepting that God's love is made manifest to His children through the ordinances of the temple.

Regards,
MG

[_RockSlider]

.... and if not I will share my journey from Mormonism to Christianity in regards to theology and faith...basically what I believe and why I believe it.

Mark, After all these years I did not know you were a Mormon. I thought you were an Evangelical Christian all along.

I was not interested so much in debate as to a winner/loser, it's just that in the last few years I've realized how weak Mormon's are in regards to actual Biblical Scholarship. I have been educated much from formal debates on both sides. I considered myself real knowledgeable about heavy meats of Mormon doctrine and now find myself a bit embarrassed at how ignorant I am in my knowledge of Biblical Studies. The PhD level of scholarship found in Ehrman, Price and William Lane Craig how shown me whole new views of the Christian world.

I am very interested in your story, your journey, your understandings and your faith. It seems that many devout Mormons, upon being exposed to the underbelly of the black and white, capital T Objective truths of the Only True Church on the earth often end up atheist. Perhaps there are more than I know, who like yourself are able to pick up the pieces and find God elsewhere.

Please do start a fresh thread, and not just for MD's sake.

[_RockSlider]

Markk,

What is your take on Bart D. Ehrman and Robert M. Price? Can you point me to...a Historian you might suggest at their level only orthodox believing?

Bruce Metzger comes first to mind.

Thanks for the suggestion, I see the Metzger was Ehrman's master and doctorate mentor, I assume through part of Ehrman's life when he was orthodox believing.

It is interesting how some, upon hitting the scholarly levels lose their faith, hence my interest in some whom have studied and remain faithful.

Among previous believers
Ehrman, Price, Barker, Andrews, Shermer

[_Markk]

.... and if not I will share my journey from Mormonism to Christianity in regards to theology and faith...basically what I believe and why I believe it.

Mark, After all these years I did not know you were a Mormon. I thought you were an Evangelical Christian all along.

I was not interested so much in debate as to a winner/loser, it's just that in the last few years I've realized how weak Mormon's are in regards to actual Biblical Scholarship. I have been educated much from formal debates on both sides. I considered myself real knowledgeable about heavy meats of Mormon doctrine and now find myself a bit embarrassed at how ignorant I am in my knowledge of Biblical Studies. The Ph.D. level of scholarship found in Ehrman, Price and William Lane Craig how shown me whole new views of the Christian world.

I am very interested in your story, your journey, your understandings and your faith. It seems that many devout Mormons, upon being exposed to the underbelly of the black and white, capital T Objective truths of the Only True Church on the earth often end up atheist. Perhaps there are more than I know, who like yourself are able to pick up the pieces and find God elsewhere.

Please do start a fresh thread, and not just for MD's sake.

I'll start one this weekend, or sooner if I get quality time.

I was for 34 years before I left. I am at least 5th generation and up to 7th generation an all sides i.e. all my grand parents are generational Mormons. I have at least 7 ggggp that were polygamists, and I have at least 3 gggp that were. If you go to the Rexburg area, my DNA is intertwined with many folks, also east Salt Lake, and American Fork and Springville.

I have been searching my geneology on family search lately, and I have been talking to Brian Hales via e-mails, and LOL, I found we are cousins. I can trace linage, mostly by law, to William Clayton, Cannon, and Martin Harris and other key players. Edwin Whiting is my ggggf.

I guarantee you I have cousins on this board if they go back to NY and Nauvoo. I have a ggg uncle and aunt, that were born at Nauvoo in 45, and 46...my ggggm was borm in 47 in Mass. after my ggggf was sent on a mission from Nauvoo by BY.

Sorry to ramble but this is all fresh on my mind.