The Millennials simplified.

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_moinmoin
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Re: The Millennials simplified.

Post by _moinmoin »

Morley wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by your suggestion that the current climate for intellectuals might be better, or might be worse, than that of Roberts' time. How would it be better? How would it be worse?


I think there are some paradoxes. In my view, the heyday of Mormon thinkers was the Roberts/Widtsoe/Sjodahl era, but that era was also heavily dominated by Joseph Fielding Smith fundamentalism. So, it was both a "good" climate, and a "bad" climate for thinkers. Mostly good, overall, I think, because while there were some headwinds, they were influential and productive. The decades went forth to Sperry, Nibley, and non-believing thinkers as well (e.g., McMurrin, et. al.).

Today, by contrast, Mormon intellectuals are institutionally much more unshackeled, I think. JFS-style fundamentalism holds much less sway. Unless they create a great deal of trouble for the Church and remain defiant when corrected, they can openly write and even teach things like multiple Isaiah authorship and de-mythologizing of the New Testament (e.g., Bokovoy and Wayment). Jana Riess is free to do her activities and publish her studies with her commentary without jeopardy to her membership (for now. It remains to be seen whether she will cross the Rubicon at some point). In contrast to the "old school" era, though, modern believing intellectuals have very little influence on the rank-and-file active Mormons. So, while there is probably more freedom to range further from orthodoxy and correlation, it has an inversely reduced influence on most active Mormons.

Does that help? That's where I'm coming from in thinking that it is a complicated question as to whether the past or the present is a better or worse climate for Mormon intellectuals.
Last edited by Guest on Mon May 27, 2019 4:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_moinmoin
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Re: The Millennials simplified.

Post by _moinmoin »

Maksutov wrote::lol: :lol: :lol: Just keep sucking down those Givens books. :razz:


I don't care for the Givens, or their books. Die sind nicht mein Bier . . .
_Morley
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Re: The Millennials simplified.

Post by _Morley »

moinmoin wrote:
Morley wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by your suggestion that the current climate for intellectuals might be better, or might be worse, than that of Roberts' time. How would it be better? How would it be worse?


I think there are some paradoxes. In my view, the heyday of Mormon thinkers was the Roberts/Widtsoe/Sjodahl era, but that era was also heavily dominated by Joseph Fielding Smith fundamentalism. So, it was both a "good" climate, and a "bad" climate for thinkers. Mostly good, overall, I think, because while there were some headwinds, they were influential and productive. The decades went forth to Sperry, Nibley, and non-believing thinkers as well (e.g., McMurrin, et. al.).

Today, by contrast, Mormon intellectuals are institutionally much more unshackeled, I think. JFS-style fundamentalism holds much less sway. Unless they create a great deal of trouble for the Church and remain defiant when corrected, they can openly write and even teach things like multiple Isaiah authorship and de-mythologizing of the New Testament (e.g., Bokovoy and Wayment). Jana Riess is free to do her activities and publish her studies with her commentary without jeopardy to her membership (for now. It remains to be seen whether she will cross the Rubicon at some point). In contrast to the "old school" era, though, modern believing intellectuals have very little influence on the rank-and-file active Mormons. So, while there is probably more freedom to range further from orthodoxy and correlation, it has an inversely reduced influence on most active Mormons.

Does that help? That's where I'm coming from in thinking that it is a complicated question as to whether the past or the present is a better or worse climate for Mormon intellectuals.


Yes, it does. Thank you.

I admit that I'm surprised that you see Joseph Fielding Smith teachings as fundamentalism. I would have thought that the Answers to Gospel Questions-type of outline of Church history and doctrine would have been your intellectual bread and butter.

I think the old guard apologists are all diminished because they all had their problems, but you say that you're also not a fan of Givens. Who is there who's writing now that you hew to? For instance, what do you think of the current Bayes Theorem paper?
_Darth J
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Re: The Millennials simplified.

Post by _Darth J »

_Darth J
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Posts: 13392
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Re: The Millennials simplified.

Post by _Darth J »

moinmoin wrote: Mormon intellectuals


This, like "testimony," is a meaningless expression that Moinmoin is throwing around to make gibberish appear worthy of being taken seriously.

LOL in particular at the nobility of the freedom to be irrelevant, which apparently is one of the characteristics of whatever a "Mormon intellectual" is.
Last edited by Guest on Mon May 27, 2019 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Darth J
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Re: The Millennials simplified.

Post by _Darth J »

As much as I'm enjoying Moinmoin's mixed metaphors---we have to separate the wheat from the chaff so we can cull the herd of the barnacles on the ship---I can't help but notice how he repeatedly uses "Mormon" as a noun and an adjective, even though the next in line to die in the church hierarchy has announced that such usage of "Mormon" is a victory for Satan.

Given that "follow the prophet" is and always has been identical with faithfulness in Mormonism (sic), how is Moinmoin's ongoing disregard of prophetic counsel not a sign that he will be first against the wall when it's time to mow the lawn to take out the trash (or something)?
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