Clark Goble Has Passed Away.

[_Kishkumen]

Interesting stuff, DocCam. It certainly demonstrates for the umpteenth time that apologists and critics have a difficult time engaging each other productively. What I continue to find fascinating is how each side views the other as insufferably arrogant and mean spirited. And, frankly, it's not hard to see why. We cheer for our own side and find the other side wanting. Our worldview makes sense; the other guy's is fundamentally deficient. These problems are very difficult to overcome. It practically takes a saint or sage to be consistently mature, reasonable, and rational in these exchanges. Heaven knows I've failed many, many times over, and yet I have had the chutzpah to put myself out there as a person who really tries at it. Silly me.

At this point, though, I should think that any apologist who dares to post here and can weather the torrent of abuse that is surely coming his way is a cut above the rest. First, s/he sees that there are interesting discussions taking place here. Then, s/he is willing to take some hits for trying to engage with us when the dominant culture here is derisive of Mormonism, its origins, its scripture, its truth claims, its rituals, its church organization, and its very culture. It is a place where the most sacred aspects of Mormonism are regularly lampooned.

So, despite the fact that the recently departed Mr. Goble had feet of clay like the rest of us, I think that he merits praise simply for being made of tougher stuff than the majority of LDS apologists. He actually came here, and he actually hung around for a bit. And, frankly, he was a person of pretty impressive accomplishments who was a deep thinker. Sure, he's no Thomas Aquinas or even a Shelby Spong, but he is about as worthy an interlocutor as one could hope for in the world of ephemeral religious sparring online. He once worked at Los Alamos and founded a chocolate company that won awards for its fine products.

The worthiness of one's opponents is an adornment to the competition and one's own role in it. (Top that for putting on airs.)

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

You know, Kish. I'd agree with you if we didn't have the Celestial forum. Anyone that seriously wants to engage a topic, is worried about tone, and wants a moderated thread heavy on respectful dialogue would post there. I have no doubt, whatsoever, if Mormon apologists genuinely wanted this they'd post there and then the thoughtful, respectful, and educated posters would follow. In fact, I believe if Mormon apologists did this, most of the traffic would actually shift to the Celestial forum.

This says a lot about their ultimate aims in posting here.

- Doc

[_Analytics]

Clark Goble was consistently one of the most interesting and classy people I've had the pleasure of interacting with on these forums. He actually listened to what I said and responded to it. That was amazing. I felt he was willing to grant me a point when he though I had one, and call me out when he thought I was wrong. He never questioned my sincerity or insinuated that I believed what I did because of underlying psychological or spiritual deficiencies. At the end of our conversations we rarely agreed on everything, but I usually learned something and always felt listened to. It was satisfying.

I didn't know him in real life, but wish I did.

My condolences to his family and loved ones. We all lost a fine human being.

[_Kishkumen]

You know, Kish. I'd agree with you if we didn't have the Celestial forum. Anyone that seriously wants to engage a topic, is worried about tone, and wants a moderated thread heavy on respectful dialogue would post there. I have no doubt, whatsoever, if Mormon apologists genuinely wanted this they'd post there and then the thoughtful, respectful, and educated posters would follow. In fact, I believe if Mormon apologists did this, most of the traffic would actually shift to the Celestial forum.

This says a lot about their ultimate aims in posting here.

- Doc

So, what? Are we digging hard for reasons to find fault with any apologist who comes here? Yeah, the Celestial Forum is a real hopping place. Most of us spend the bulk of our time there. It's no wonder that it attracts all of the best LDS apologists. I think, honestly, that one reason people do not come here is because this place is generally viewed as a kind of garbage heap, unfair though that portrait is. That it is viewed in such a way, however, is not at all surprising when you think of how averse to criticism of Mormonism most LDS people are.

So, yes, we can certainly place the burden on others to go to the Celestial Forum, as though people were obliged to spend their time coming up with strategies for how best to impress us here on the MDB, but one might just as readily tell us to "get real."

[_Kishkumen]

Clark Goble was consistently one of the most interesting and classy people I've had the pleasure of interacting with on these forums. He actually listened to what I said and responded to it. That was amazing. I felt he was willing to grant me a point when he though I had one, and call me out when he thought I was wrong. He never questioned my sincerity or insinuated that I believed what I did because of underlying psychological or spiritual deficiencies. At the end of our conversations we rarely agreed on everything, but I usually learned something and always felt listened to. It was satisfying.

That is a fine tribute, Analytics.

[_Lemmie]

I think, honestly, that one reason people do not come here is because this place is generally viewed as a kind of garbage heap, unfair though that portrait is. That it is viewed in such a way, however, is not at all surprising when you think of how averse to criticism of Mormonism most LDS people are.

excellent point, kish. The last time I noticed that Clark was here, there was some joshing about “snark” and then the air seemed cleared and there was a very interesting discussion. I actually thought it went well.

Shortly after was when I read Clark’s assessment of his interactions here, I assume including the thread that I mentioned above, and I was quite shocked to read how negative his assessment was of all posters here, whom he defined, in total, as an abusive, negative, petty and characterless group. Literally. It was shocking and disturbing to read, but in the context of your comment about criticism, makes more sense now. It’s unfortunate he walked away with that feeling, because I don’t think anyone in the small group of people interacting with him in that thread thought that about him.

Bottom line is, I see aspects of the lds church as causing issues such as this, not the individuals in the middle. In that sense I cannot agree more with Doctor CamNC4Me’s assessment:

Again. I want to underscore that I really think Mr. Goble, as a human being, father, and man was great.

[_Kishkumen]

Shortly after was when I read Clark’s assessment of his interactions here, I assume including the thread that I mentioned above, and I was quite shocked to read how negative his assessment was of all posters here, whom he defined, in total, as an abusive, negative, petty and characterless group. Literally. It was shocking and disturbing to read, but in the context of your comment about criticism, makes more sense now. It’s unfortunate he walked away with that feeling, because I don’t think anyone in the small group of people interacting with him in that thread thought that about him.

Bottom line is, I see aspects of the lds church as causing issues such as this, not the individuals in the middle.

That's interesting, Lemmie. I agree that the division and inability to see eye to eye are very real, but I could replace the LDS Church with practically any other thing that people identify strongly with and argue about, and your description of events, I believe, would not be much different. It may be that our humanity in this new technological petri dish called the Internet is where the problem lies, not in a specific group or belief system.

[_mentalgymnast]

...he provided a LOT of great reading material.

Yes he did. I've read his stuff over the years and found him insightful and full of grace and wisdom. One of the intellects of the church in my estimation. Death takes us seemingly willy nilly and you never know when it's time to sign off. I just found out yesterday that a friend (two years older than me and my Bishop for a period of time) had a heart attack and died a couple of days ago.

Clark Goble seemed to be one of those folks that had a knack for making a good argument while also being respectful of the positions of others. A good role model. Best wishes to his family and loved ones.

Regards,
MG

[_Gray Ghost]

Clark was a gentleman of the highest order, a person who was always fair minded and decent, from my experience. He will be greatly missed.

[_Uther]

Just chatted with him a few days ago, and am sad to hear of his sudden passing. Young children losing their father is a harsh reality indeed. He was the type of guy that leaves me with positive hopes for Mormonism.

Sometimes I catch myself in contemplating the words "there are other worlds than these", with a hope that somwhere on a plane ortagonal to the event horizon, there is a place where the human light and love, memmory, intelect and relation will remain beyond time, instead of fading away like drawings on a sandy shore.

Sounds like you knew him better than most of us did, Uther. Did you chat with him occasionally? Frequently?

In any case, I was a lot more upset by this than I thought I would be because, whatever my disagreement with him on various issues, I could expect that he would at least know his way around a lot of the out-of-the-way points. I enjoyed it when he recommended that I look into Don Bradley's work. And, I have to hand it to him--he actually posted here. So many people now avoid this place like the plague.

I have encountered him on forums and in chat over many years, and while we held differing opinions about the divinity of the LDS church, his approach was always one of thoughfulness and kindness, in stark comparison to some other apologetic minded persons. I was having a discussion with him a few days before he died, and I did not see that coming.