Exposing the Corporation?????s ?????Backdoor????? Approach to Science

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_Simon Southerton
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Re: Exposing the Corporation’s ‘Backdoor’ Approach to Scienc

Post by _Simon Southerton »

Dr Moore wrote:Fascinating.

Would it be a logical leap to guess that Sessions claims Satan is behind all of the mistaken science out in the world? Has he ever made that claim?


I don't think he makes that claim in the PaP conference interview. But he has clearly stated that the global scientific community is currently in a "dark age". I'm certain he believes Satan is behind that. It would be great to hear an interviewer press him on the question of Satanic influence at the Lord's University.
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_Physics Guy
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Re: Exposing the Corporation’s ‘Backdoor’ Approach to Scienc

Post by _Physics Guy »

Simon Southerton wrote:The two-faced apologists are in a bind. If they do nothing then Meldrum and Sessions take over the airwaves and the Church goes full nutjob creationist. If the apologists fight back it will only add fuel to the fire by exposing them as evil evolutionists. I guess that's the price the church pays for its deceitful backdoor approach.

Nicely put in a nutshell.

There are certainly plenty of crackpots, and fans of crackpots, having all kinds of different religious beliefs—or none. I still have a feeling that Mormonism is a bit more susceptible to this kind of thing than other viewpoints, though. I see a lot of similarity in behavior between Joseph Smith and pseudoscientists.

Other religious leaders that spring to my mind may have had the chutzpah to declare new teachings but it seems to me that at least they were forthright about it. Whatever it was they had to say, it seems to me that they tried to make it as clear as possible, so that everyone could understand it and judge it for themselves on whatever merit they saw in it. If you need to take something on faith, they ask you openly to decide for yourself that you will take it on faith. Real scientific innovators are similarly forthright, I think, just at another end of the evidence spectrum where there's less need for faith—and all the supporting evidence is readily accessible. You can check for yourself.

The mark of a crackpot, in contrast, seems to me to be a certain reliance on invisible props. Instead of appealing directly to your own judgement of their case on its merits, or depending on evidence that you can check for yourself, they appeal to a supporting authority that isn't really accessible.

Perhaps the crackpot's evidence includes no single completely convincing example, but it is convincing by virtue of its sheer volume—which is conveniently too large for anyone to actually check. So this vast weight of evidence that supports the crackpot so firmly is in practical terms out of sight.

Or perhaps there was this lab test that was done a few years ago, in some remote lab. It was absolutely rigorous; it established the crackpot's theory beyond any question; the crackpot cites it again and again. No-one is ever going to be competent to replicate the procedure and none of the original equipment or data is available for inspection. It's an invisible prop.

It seems to me that there's almost always something like that, with a crackpot; something that supports the crackpot's claim but that cannot be checked.

Joseph Smith could have said something like, "Folks, I've had this most awesome dream. There were these Israelites here in America, and their religion was this upgraded Christianity that I really think we should all adopt. Here's how it goes." To me that would have been more in the style of Buddha or Jesus or Mohammed, letting the message speak for itself without relying on props. Instead Smith had to lean on golden plates and a visible angel and a quasi-translation from Reformed Egyptian, all of which supposedly established Smith's role as prophet but all of which were inaccessible. He's propped up with invisible props, in way that smells crackpot to me.
_Simon Southerton
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Re: Exposing the Corporation’s ‘Backdoor’ Approach to Scienc

Post by _Simon Southerton »

Res Ipsa wrote:This paragraph of Bickmore's review reminds me of someone, but I just...can't...remember...


It wouldn't be our favourite parallelomaniac would it?

That would be a good fit, but I'm thinking of a new fella you probably haven't met yet.


The reason John Sorenson sprang to mind is that for over 50 years he has used the same Gish Galloping approach as Dean Sessions. Drown your opponent with as many weak claims as possible in the knowledge that they cannot possibly respond to each claim. The sheer number of weak claims is very impressive to people who don't have a good understanding of the subject matter (i.e most Mormons).
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_I have a question
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Re: Exposing the Corporation’s ‘Backdoor’ Approach to Scienc

Post by _I have a question »

I thought Dean Sessions was a colloquialism for the Cassius senior faculty’s late night drinking parties...
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
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Re: Exposing the Corporation’s ‘Backdoor’ Approach to Scienc

Post by _I have a question »

https://universalmodel.com/portfolio_pa ... net-earth/

What IS the liquid inside of the Earth? The concept that the Earth is a Hydroplanet instead of a magmaplanet is one of the key components of the UM. Evidences of a Hydroplanet Earth include the Crystallization Process which demonstrates that rocks are made out of water, Celestial Water and the abundance of water in the Universe and other planets, and Hydrospheres—spherically shaped celestial bodies with large amounts of water and ice.

Volcanos spew hot water, right?

The UM crew appear to be no longer residing in Kansas...
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_SteelHead
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Re: Exposing the Corporation’s ‘Backdoor’ Approach to Scienc

Post by _SteelHead »

DrW wrote:Simon,

Thanks for posting this. My first response to Sessions' nonsense as I read was amusement. This soon turned to anger. And finally, after reading Bickmore's commentary, to sadness.

It is astounding to me that there are (supposedly) educated adults in the US that can sincerely believe the young earth creationists' narratives. I consider science deniers, in general, to be a danger to civil society.

Science denial by anti-vaxxers, young earth creationists and religionists in general, can be annoying, or even give rise to localized epidemics of infectious diseases. Refractory anthropogenic climate change deniers, in sufficient numbers, represent an near term existential threat for many poor or geographically vulnerable populations. And perhaps a long term threat to us all. No matter what one believes the atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration tipping point to be, common sense tells us its out there and approaching fast.

Due to sea level rise, spring and fall "king tides" here in South Florida now regularly flood some of the most expensive business and residential property around with a foot or two of brackish water. The water gains access to the more inland areas through an extensive system of canals in the most expensive parts of town. The canals are open to the ocean and the water gains access to multi million dollar residential properties by moving through the porous limestone on which the streets and buildings stand.

It pains to say this, but one of the comforts I take from being of a certain age is that I will not personally be on Earth when things get really bad. I do have great concern for my children, and especially my grandchildren. I'm doing what I can can to help them have the knowledge and financial resources they will need to adapt.

Unfortunately, it seems that the LDS Church functions to diminish both through the demand for tithing and actively or tacitly promoting doubt of mainstream science when it conflicts with religious dogma.


I have a friend who is a materials engineer. He believes in yec, and preaches that thermodynamics preclude evolution. You can be smart, well educated, and obtuse as a stump all at the same time thanks to the bifurcation we can do to our own brains.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
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_Gadianton
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Re: Exposing the Corporation’s ‘Backdoor’ Approach to Scienc

Post by _Gadianton »

This was a great article Simon. I hope to god that you're wrong, and that this guy doesn't rise in popularity to rival Meldrum.

Interpreter might begin to feel the squeeze. They are loosely united with their Heartland brothers in rejecting science, but the apologists just mean to cast enough doubt to make their favorite Mopologetic theory of the day true. The problem with that is, from a certain angle, a world where there are 15 underdog theories passed over by the institution, all capable of being a Kuhnian revolution within their field, per every other post by DCP, a mind that seeks consistency might suspect that a deeper problem lurks within science, and a meta-revolution might be just what we need.

The mark of a crackpot, in contrast, seems to me to be a certain reliance on invisible props. Instead of appealing directly to your own judgement of their case on its merits, or depending on evidence that you can check for yourself, they appeal to a supporting authority that isn't really accessible.


I've seen lots of cases where crackpots appeal to their audience to "make up their own mind" and not take their word for it. Of course, the judicial process involves comparing a real theory that might not be easy to comprehend let alone master with something that resonates with whimsical fascination. I think that 911 document in SP might have gone this route also.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

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_Maksutov
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Re: Exposing the Corporation’s ‘Backdoor’ Approach to Scienc

Post by _Maksutov »

"Publicly formulated the first time in January 2013 by Alberto Brandolini, an Italian programmer, the BS asymmetry principle (also known as Brandolini's law) states that: The amount of energy needed to refute BS is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

https://medium.com/@julius.uy/brandolin ... 605eb4a4db
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_Dr Moore
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Re: Exposing the Corporation’s ‘Backdoor’ Approach to Scienc

Post by _Dr Moore »

After watching several of his videos, I come away with some sympathy for the guy. I mean, what kid raised in Christianity or Mormonism hasn't wondered how the great flood happened and what evidence it should have left behind? That connection to childhood innocence and curiosity is precisely why he wins followers, I suppose.

There is a logical chain to the UM that begins with something believers are wont to believe -- the great flood. Each step thereafter moves the listener further away from good science, but he does things like theorize miles deep oceans with high temperatures caused by earthquakes at earth's surface, leading to the perfect conditions to form certain rocks and sand, and then he tests those theories with autoclaves! And this continues until finally the innocent listener is a boiled frog.

But by the end, it should be obvious something went horribly wrong, because to tie the model off with a bow he requires the listener to believe that the earth's mass is something like 3x less than the accepted value -- due to the massive difference in density between ice/water and rock/magma. That should be enough for most folks to just walk away, even if you don't know anything about where the underlying science was inadequately twisted.

You don't have to be a trained physicist to recognize the absurdity of claiming all of humankind has wrongly measured earth's mass. That fighure is, I believe, one of the oldest and most tested, and tested in so many ways, and subsequently refined and re-tested cosmological-physical values in the lexicon of science (please correct me if that is over-extending the history of scientific observation and measurement), and the mass of earth also feeds directly into many of our present-day ultra-precision technologies such as GPS systems.

Anyway, I would be surprised if the apologists have much to fear from Sessions and the UM.

There is far more to worry about with noisy Heartlanders and apologists fighting them off, regardless whether that fighting is done through Peter Pan or Farmsian scholarship. It is a lose-lose-lose situation. First off, the starting conclusion -- existence of Nephites/Lamanites -- is not widely accepted, so there is no end-state observation like earth's mass which requires a huge leap between theory and observation -- there is no observation!! But from the standpoint of the church, wanting to keep and attract believers, the Heartlander movement is a real mess. Do nothing and risk allowing them to peel off members with a better fit between Book of Mormon and "science". Debate them, and the church still loses because the very fact that debate exists over LGT & hemispherical models, means even more believers are likely to take a look. Once believing truth seekers take a look into that debate, they are in the rabbit hole, like it or not. Statistically, it is low odds of remaining in the church once in the rabbit hole. Lose lose lose.
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Re: Exposing the Corporation’s ‘Backdoor’ Approach to Scienc

Post by _Physics Guy »

Gadianton wrote:I've seen lots of cases where crackpots appeal to their audience to "make up their own mind" and not take their word for it. Of course, the judicial process involves comparing a real theory that might not be easy to comprehend let alone master with something that resonates with whimsical fascination.

Yeah, that rings a bell, too. I guess I have not yet finalized the general theory of crackpots.

Sometimes the direction to "make up your own minds" seems kind of rhetorical because it really means, "Contemplate the evidence that you can't actually get and conclude that I'm right". But I agree that sometimes it's exactly a matter of telling people to trust their own naïve instincts about stuff that is actually a lot more complicated than that.

The two approaches aren't necessarily incompatible. Flat Earthism, for instance, tells people to trust their own simple impression that the ground seems pretty level over weird notions of folks somehow sticking to the other side of the dadgummed world and not falling off. Yet when anyone pauses to wonder about ships sailing over the horizon or something, then suddenly it's the Zetetic Law of Perspective as rigorously proven in an old book from 1881.

(Actually nowadays you really can easily google that old book and read the amusing proof for yourself, but for a long time that wasn't an option.)

Figuring out the general theory of crackpots is looking harder than I thought. Wait, I have an idea.

My original theory was perfect and I have an irrefutable proof of it, written in Reformed Braille on a stack of tinfoil sheets. I have a feeling that a benevolent alien is going to take the tinfoil sheets back to Saturn real soon now but I'm going to sign some witness names to a statement so it will all still be cool.
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