Bricolage and inspiration

[_Physics Guy]

I saw a post by Don Bradley here recently but I haven't been able to find it again despite making the best use I could've the search function. As I recall, though, the gist of it was that while Joseph Smith was reciting the Book of Mormon, he may have believed sincerely that God was manipulating him, and all his daily experiences, in such a way as to prompt in him the ideas that God wanted revealed. Thus Smith could have been knowingly inserting an eclectic bricolage of ideas from his own time into the text of the Book, while also sincerely believing himself to be a prophet receiving revelations from God.

Since I haven't been able to find the post I remembered I can't be sure that this is what Don Bradley really argued. It stuck in my mind, though, because it struck me as perfectly plausible. I can imagine that Smith might have believed that God was speaking to him all the time through all the events in his daily life.

This model of revelation, though, would also be an example of something I've posted here before: that in a case like Smith's there may not even be a difference between fraud and sincerity. A conscious con artist would knowingly be telling a story that they had made up themselves, but exactly what happens when someone makes up a story? A professional novelist may carefully choose between alternative plot lines, but I think that plenty of websites for amateur authors will confirm that amateurs pretty much just rattle off ideas as they pop into their heads, having been sparked from all kinds of sources.

I can't help asking what distinguishes that kind of freewheeling composition, on the one hand, from the "God speaks to me through my life" model of prophetic inspiration, on the other. The only thing I can see that distinguishes between those two modes of composing a text is merely that in the first case the person who makes up the story refers to the process of making up the story as "making up a story", while in the second case precisely the same mental activity gets called "receiving revelations".

So how much of a defense of Smith's sincerity can it really be to establish that he was sincere in way that is indistinguishable from deliberate fraud? I mean, okay, this line of thinking makes it quite plausible even to a skeptic like me that Joseph Smith had a sincere belief in his own inspired bricolage. It seems like a cheap form of sincerity.

[_Holy Ghost]

It takes a special kind of a narcissist to think, not just claim, but to genuinely think that he is so special, a divine being is infusing 'truths' into his mind but no one else's mind. A narcissist of the type that would charge people to find buried treasure on their lands, and continue to do it though none has ever been found. A narcissist of the degree that would tell people that God wants them to turn over their time, their money and their daughters to him, like Heber C. Kimball for example.

A conscious con artist at least has a conscience, no matter how much he ignores and abuses it. To be taken in by such a fraudster is likely to be a one time experience. You can recover from your losses.

A pious fraud is more dangerous. Like Heber C. Kimball, if taken in by a pious fraud, you can lose everything for the rest of your life.

I don't think it helps Mormons or any religion to tout its founder or leaders as pious frauds.

[_Dr Moore]

Was this the comment you were looking for, Physics Guy?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=52666&p=1209490#p1209490

About Terry'ls "bricolage" idea - fascinating.

I think you'd enjoy the recent podcast interview I did with Bryce Blankenagel: https://nakedmormonismpodcast.com/episo ... n-bradley/

Here is snippet I gave on Joseph Smith in that interview:

Quote:
He believes that divine providence is all over his life, the hand of God is everywhere. Including in picking the scribes and choosing the people around him helping him, that all becomes part of his process of “studying it out” in his mind of what should go into translation of the Book of Mormon. So I think for Joseph Smith there’s not a dichotomy between things in his environment entering into his mental hopper as he’s working through this process of translating of bringing out text. There’s not a dichotomy for him between environmental influence and the divine working through him. Part of the way the divine influence works through him is by putting certain influences into his environment.


This certainly would allow for a "bricolage" approach to revelation, including translation.

Don

[_Physics Guy]

That's it—thanks. I don't know why I couldn't find. I looked through that thread a couple of times and just somehow overlooked it, I guess. Then I tried searching Don Bradley's posts, but somehow didn't see it in the list there either.

[_Physics Guy]

It takes a special kind of a narcissist to think, not just claim, but to genuinely think that he is so special, a divine being is infusing 'truths' into his mind but no one else's mind.

Yeah, this is kind of my feeling. If a person makes up stories and says they're revelations from God, then learning that this person really believed that doesn't make me feel better about them. It makes me feel worse about them. As you say, an ordinary con artist might still have some level of conscience. Most of ethics is about not considering oneself to be special.

It's precisely the "divine providence is all over [my] life" part that really bothers me about Smith. If somebody says, "I had this one dream that I think was from God," then I'm not necessarily going to believe them but I'm not going to accuse them of narcissism. They're not saying they're special; they're saying they had one special experience. Anyone can have a special experience.

I might not even blame someone like Mohammed who (I understand) regularly went into trances in which he received revelations (he said). Maybe he faked the trances, or maybe they were a psychological or neurological condition over which he had no control. In the first case he'd have been a regular con artist. In the second case he'd have had at least some legitimate reason, besides narcissism, to believe he was special. Most people don't suffer from regular trances, and even among those who do, few emerge from them with classic poems.

But the "hand of God is everywhere" thing makes it sound as though the only special thing about Smith's experiences is that they were his experiences. He repeated stuff that he heard and read. Thinking of that kind of thing as divine revelation must take narcissism, I think.

[_DrW]

He believes that divine providence is all over his life, the hand of God is everywhere. Including in picking the scribes and choosing the people around him helping him, that all becomes part of his process of “studying it out” in his mind of what should go into translation of the Book of Mormon. So I think for Joseph Smith there’s not a dichotomy between things in his environment entering into his mental hopper as he’s working through this process of translating of bringing out text. There’s not a dichotomy for him between environmental influence and the divine working through him. Part of the way the divine influence works through him is by putting certain influences into his environment.

This description of Joseph Smith's beliefs as to his own capabilities and God-given powers and purpose is a pretty much text book description of an individual suffering from the Messiah Complex subset of Delusions of Grandeur. From a paper describing Adolf Hitler's Messiah Complex:

A subset of individuals with psychotic symptoms appears able to form intense social bonds and communities despite having an extremely distorted view of reality. The existence of a better socially functioning subset of individuals with psychotic-type symptoms is corroborated by research indicating that psychotic-like experiences, including both bizarre and non-bizarre delusion-like beliefs, are frequently found in the general population. This supports the idea that psychotic symptoms likely lie on a continuum.

Regarding the emergence of new religions and cults founded and led by charismatic but delusional individuals such as Joseph Smith, who were able to attract and hold followers, even though discipleship was clearly against their own self interest (as in young females acquiescing to have sex with Joseph Smith based on his assurances that they would earn eternal salvation for themselves and their families if they did so), researchers concluded the following.

Social models of psychopathology and group dynamics are proposed as explanations for how followers were attracted and new belief systems emerged and were perpetuated. The authors suggest a new DSM diagnostic subcategory as a way to distinguish this type of psychiatric presentation. These findings support the possibility that persons with primary and mood disorder-associated psychotic symptoms have had a monumental influence on the shaping of Western civilization. It is hoped that these findings will translate into increased compassion and understanding for persons living with mental illness.

[_DonBradley]

Physics Guy,

I don't understand what "a cheap form of sincerity" would mean. This seems like a value judgment on something other than the sincerity itself. Help me understand?

Also, by the way, I'm not saying the thoughts I've offered here comprise the totality of Joseph Smith's revelatory/translation process. I'm quite certain they don't. Much more work should be put into identifying the actual cognitive processes Joseph Smith used.

Whatever those processes were, it seems to me they had to be distinct from Joseph's ordinary cognitive processes, since - as I started noting, to my perplexity, when I still thought the man an opportunist - he treated his words of revelation differently than his non-revelatory words. The processes of producing these words were distinct enough from his ordinary processes for producing words that the words produced by the revelatory process took on a whole new significance to him. That suggests more than the casual distinction in the processes that it seems to me you're positing.

I'll be exploring all of this in future publications where I can lay out systematically what I see of his processes and the context in which they are used. But there's still way more that will need to be done to really get at the specifics of what he's doing and how see understands it.

Don

[_Dr Moore]

Seems Fairmormon is inclined to disagree with the notions of prophetic imagination.

https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2019/12 ... -scripture

[_Gadianton]

This model of revelation, though, would also be an example of something I've posted here before: that in a case like Smith's there may not even be a difference between fraud and sincerity. A conscious con artist would knowingly be telling a story that they had made up themselves, but exactly what happens when someone makes up a story?

The closest I feel I've ever come to interacting with a self-proclaimed prophet is this guy I met through a friend who in my best understanding of pop psychology was a pathological liar. The pretense of our meeting (I guess our own intentions weren't totally upright) was to get some career direction as this guy was a young exec in the direction i was headed, but the real reason was per my friend "You've got to listen to this guy ..." and sure enough he didn't disappoint. Now he didn't claim to be a prophet or anything, but should he have felt the call he'd have been right at home. It's like, there has to be some category beside fraud and sincerity, because he couldn't have believed anything he told me, but at the same time, the words coming out of his mouth were totally earnest. Anything from, in passing, the Stake Center in his home town with three swimming pools to his elite martial arts students (it would be physically impossible for this guy to perform the martial arts he allegedly taught).

[_DrW]

For those who may feel that delusions of grandeur is an unfair characterization of Joseph Smith's belief and behavior, here are a few quotations and well documented descriptions of his actions and their intent to consider.

"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . " " (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409)

From a Mormon Think article on Joseph Smith's plan to rule the world.

He (Joseph Smith) envisioned himself as a king presiding over an empire that eventually would include not only America but the entire world. He organized a council of fifty men to help him realize his goal. Under his direction, this secretive body appears to have been given the responsibility of setting up satellite cells for this theocratic kingdom throughout the United States and the world.

Again, from that same source:

Apostles Lyman Wight and Heber C. Kimball, both members of the Council of Fifty, in a June 19, 1844, letter to Joseph Smith boldly declared, “You are bound to be the President of the United States on 4th March 1845 and that you are already president pro tem of the world.”

Mormon Think summarized the article as follows:

In summary, Joseph Smith by attempting to establish a secret theocratic-government within America in 1844 appears to have violated the treason clause of the U.S. Constitution (Article III, Section 3). Moreover, his plan and method for overthrowing the United States, and eventually all world governments, caused apprehension within the United States. Had Smith lived a few more years, his actions most likely would have convicted him of treason, or something along those lines in a court of law. In all probably he would have served time in a penitentiary.

So, here we have an individual who believes that he did a better job than the biblical figure of Jesus Christ in establishing a church. He also claimed that his partially plagiarized and wholly fanciful Book of Mormon was more correct and of more religious value than "any other book" (which would include the Holy Bible).

"I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book," (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 461).

There is little doubt that these delusional statements and actions, along with his serial predatory sexual behaviors as mentioned upthread, would have earned Joseph Smith Jr. a place on a forensic psychiatrist's couch, if not a prison cell, in the 20th century. Those who are uncomfortable with this view might keep in mind that Joseph Smith died a common criminal in a sordid jailhouse shootout.