The Best of the 2010s: A Mopologetic Decade in Review

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_Dr Moore
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Re: The Best of the 2010s: A Mopologetic Decade in Review

Post by _Dr Moore »

moksha wrote:
Physics Guy wrote:... if any of the apologists ever got face time with the prophet to argue for limited geography, the prophet would say, "Who are you and what are you talking about?" And everyone knows that. Mormon apologetics is just as absurd within Mormonism as it is outside it.

That is because Mormon Apologetics failed to produce foolproof answers like this one: All Book of Mormon events took place in an alternate universe. God delivered Moroni unto the Palmyra location in our universe to escape from the MesoItalian Lamanites, so that Joseph could dig up the gold-resembling plates made of Mormonium (a totally liftable substance that could convey an ancient story through the medium of a seer stone). Once the story was recorded, the plates were returned to the original universe, but the information from that other universe was fully restored here.


This not only works, but your LUT (limited universe) theory fits nicely with a multiversal explanation for the Book of Abraham. The characters are all correct in that universe, and the scrolls were indeed written by the hand of Abraham before porting to our dimension via Michael Chandlers unsuspecting caravan.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: The Best of the 2010s: A Mopologetic Decade in Review

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

QUANTUM Mormonism.
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Dr Exiled
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Re: The Best of the 2010s: A Mopologetic Decade in Review

Post by _Dr Exiled »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:QUANTUM Mormonism.


I think you might have stumbled onto something here. It readily explains why no one can pin the mopologists down to anything solid and why they keep jumping around so much when seemingly cornered. Where is Dr. Peterson's cat anyway? I thought I just saw it and now, poof, its gone.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: The Best of the 2010s: A Mopologetic Decade in Review

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

I feel like there’s a joke here about a wave collapsing when observed.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_SteelHead
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Re: The Best of the 2010s: A Mopologetic Decade in Review

Post by _SteelHead »

Shrodinger's Book of Mormon. It may be true, it may not - until you open the cover.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_Shulem
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Re: The Best of the 2010s: A Mopologetic Decade in Review

Post by _Shulem »

For He's a Jolly Good Fellow!

Thank you for your service, Dr. Scratch.

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_Holy Ghost
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Re: The Best of the 2010s: A Mopologetic Decade in Review

Post by _Holy Ghost »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:I wouldn't mind seeing a write up of all who crossed over regardless of time period.

One prominent crossover who went the other direction--from critic to believer--was Don Bradley. I can't think of any others in this decade who did the same, though.
Jersey Girl wrote:I dunno. I think of Don Bradley as more of a boomerang/prodigal son type crossover. But sure...I guess he qualifies.

I wouldn't expect Dr. Scratch to take on all the writing. It'd be nice to have a kind of testimony thread wherein crossovers shared their stories.

I'm asking too much, I know. Just something I'd be very interested in reading.

He's definitely a bi-Mormon.
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." Isaac Asimov
_Holy Ghost
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Re: The Best of the 2010s: A Mopologetic Decade in Review

Post by _Holy Ghost »

To the OP...

I enjoy the listing. I appreciate that such list making is subjective. I would, though, be remiss if I did not note one thing that strikes me.

After reading the explanations that have been posted, I think that the Hamblin-Jenkins debate should be #1, and the Second Watson Letter in the slot that Hamblin-Jenkins was originally in.

I was not around during the Second Watson Letter era. The Hamblin-Jenkis debate however was a real game changer. It seemed to have taken all the apologetic wind not only out of Hamblin's sails, but those of DCP as well. Since those debates, DCP just nibbles on crumbs and lobs the occasional personal attack, unwilling to weigh in on meaty criticisms of the LDS Church.

I read those 20 pages of the Hall of Fame thread on Second Watson Letter. (I wished I'd have started at the back at page 19, beginning with a re-cap post about an "mfb" at 10:57 pm on Dec 26, 2009.) One of the linked posts also had a re-cap that helped too. While that incident may have been the pulling of a thread that caused things to unravel, the near deafening silence since the debates shows me that it was the dagger to the hearts of the apologists.
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." Isaac Asimov
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: The Best of the 2010s: A Mopologetic Decade in Review

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Physics Guy wrote:A fascinating high-level view. I was surprised to see the Watson Letter in first place just because it was new to me. The episode does seem to embody the essential weirdness of aggressively theorizing apologetics in a church led by a living prophet.

Either it really doesn't matter where Cumorah is, and so the apologists should shut up, or it does matter, and so the prophet should speak up.

That, ultimately, is what set all of this in motion: i.e., FP Secretary Watson "speaking up." The episode is fascinating in the way it lays bare the internal politics of the Brethren vis-a-vis the Mopologists. You may have noticed Dr. Peterson talking about an "internal document" that was allegedly floating around: he claims that Elders Oaks and Maxwell were "overseeing" this document. Well, whose name is on the Institute that the Mopologists used to occupy? And did Maxwell come up with the language of the document himself, or did he get some help from Sorenson, Welch, Midgley, and others? (And for that matter, did Maxwell know that they had cribbed this from an RLDS hoax?)

If you try to talk about Mormonism in the non-Mormon universe, you're going to say there were all these Nephites in the Americas and immediately get the question, "Um, where?" Everyone knows that the Americas are big, but everyone knows that everywhere in them is a real place that you can probably see now on YouTube, and everyone knows that you can go there and dig. When they hear ancient history they expect archaeology. So pinning down where everything happened really matters a lot. In the Mormon universe, however, the prophet is the best judge of whether the prophet should speak; the prophet hasn't chosen to make an unequivocal churchwide declaration on geography; and so the setting of the Book of Mormon clearly does not really matter.

You are right: it doesn't matter, but it's taken decades for the Mopologists to accept this.

It's not just because as secretary to the First Presidency itself Watson was close enough to spit on the burning bush. I think the deeper point is that Watson was as close to the burning bush as any modern apologist could ever come, because if any of the apologists ever got face time with the prophet to argue for limited geography, the prophet would say, "Who are you and what are you talking about?" And everyone knows that. Mormon apologetics is just as absurd within Mormonism as it is outside it. It lives between the two worlds, not in either.

I could not have put it any better than this. This is why Dr. Shades's old "Chapel Mormon / Internet Mormon" distinction has gotten so much mileage: it pretty much perfectly captures the Mopologists' strange, liminal status.

Perhaps this is also part of why para-church institutions like FARMS and the Maxwell Institute and FairMormon and Interpreter are so important to Mormon apologists. Proxy institutions become icons of legitimacy that are precious precisely because of their ambiguous status. Just as it was equally vital that Watson was secretary to the First Presidency and that he was only the secretary, so the Neal A. Maxwell Institute was crucially ambiguous for the apologists. It bears an apostle's name and is part of BYU, yet is not part of the church itself. It wasn't just their home. It was the only home they could have.

Which very much helps to explain why their ejection from the MI was so painful for them.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: The Best of the 2010s: A Mopologetic Decade in Review

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Kishkumen wrote:Thank you for that trip down Memory Lane, Doctor Scratch. This is what I would call public history at its finest, and you, sir, are its chief public historian.

Reverend:

I'm humbled by your compliments.

I am reminded of more personal events intertwined with these significant developments. For example, I will never forget the submission of my Sunstone notes to FAIRMormon for “peer review” without my permission. That was a blast. Ahem. I will also not soon forget the kind notes—sent to my work email— from our recently departed acquaintance Bill Hamblin. Nor will my temporary “popularity” as a topic of conversation of discussion on MDDB fade from my mind any time soon.

Ah, yes. I recall those fond times. Indeed, if memory serves, it was none other than Brother Schryver himself who was tasked with conducting a "peer review" of your Sunstone notes! That pretty much sums up what "peer review" means in the world of Mopologetics: first, who peer reviews notes? Second, why was a hack like Schryver tasked with the job? Third, isn't peer review supposed to be about improving the work, rather than petty and spiteful revenge? Please refresh my memory, Reverend: did you get an apology from someone on the FAIR Board--e.g., Kevin Barney--over how this all went down?

So, here’s to the internet, the tool that exploded our religious lives, liberating us all from the grand narrative of a spiritual oligarchy. And here’s to the Good a Doctor, who has kept the fires of our memories lit with the history of a significant Mormon narrative involving Mopologetics.

Cheers to you, too, Reverend! Happy New Year!
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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