The Sacred Curse

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Simon Southerton
_Emeritus
Posts: 623
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:09 pm

Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by _Simon Southerton »

Thanks Doc.

Although most mtDNA lineages observed in contemporary Icelanders can be traced to neighboring populations in the British Isles and Scandinavia, one may have a more distant origin. This lineage belongs to haplogroup C1, one of a handful that was involved in the settlement of the Americas around 14,000 years ago. Contrary to an initial assumption that this lineage was a recent arrival, preliminary genealogical analyses revealed that the C1 lineage was present in the Icelandic mtDNA pool at least 300 years ago. This raised the intriguing possibility that the Icelandic C1 lineage could be traced to Viking voyages to the Americas that commenced in the 10th century. In an attempt to shed further light on the entry date of the C1 lineage into the Icelandic mtDNA pool and its geographical origin, we used the deCODE Genetics genealogical database to identify additional matrilineal ancestors that carry the C1 lineage and then sequenced the complete mtDNA genome of 11 contemporary C1 carriers from four different matrilines. Our results indicate a latest possible arrival date in Iceland of just prior to 1700 and a likely arrival date centuries earlier. Most surprisingly, we demonstrate that the Icelandic C1 lineage does not belong to any of the four known Native American (C1b, C1c, and C1d) or Asian (C1a) subclades of haplogroup C1. Rather, it is presently the only known member of a new subclade, C1e. While a Native American origin seems most likely for C1e, an Asian or European origin cannot be ruled out. Am J Phys Anthropol, 2010. © 2010 Wiley‐Liss, Inc.


The discovery of the C lineage in Iceland is really interesting. Initially I was pretty convinced it came from the Americas. The simple way to resolve this question would be whole genome studies on several of the individuals carrying the C lineage. If it genuinely was a Native American mitochondrial lineage then we would see clear evidence in the genome. Even Ancestry.DNA would be able to detect it. If those studies have been done, they didn't find American Indian genomic DNA, otherwise it would have been widely publicised. Hopefully they haven't been done yet and we have another surprise in store.

The significance of being able to detect evidence of a single Native American woman migrating to Iceland, but not a single Lamanite in the New World, hadn't escaped my attention.
LDS apologetics --> "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up, which creates the scandal."
"Bigfoot is a crucial part of the ecosystem, if he exists. So let's all help keep Bigfoot possibly alive for future generations to enjoy, unless he doesn't exist." - Futurama
_DrW
_Emeritus
Posts: 7222
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:57 am

Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by _DrW »

aussieguy55 wrote:mfbukowski on the other board made these nice comments (insults?)

"Sigh
It's just the old historic vs the newer spiritual understanding of our beliefs.

It's no different than Book of Mormon geography vs horses in the Book of Mormon, metallurgy, translation vs revelation, the Book of Abraham, and every other misunderstanding. Evolution. Young earth. Big Bang and ex nihilo, geocentric universe and flat earth!

Can't we see it's all the same argument, different day?

What a waste of time!!

Every alleged anachronism disappears if Joseph was teaching spiritual principles and not science or history.
When will we get over this nonsense??

Grow up people!

Grow up critics, somewhere there's a brain in your head that should get you past Santa Claus and baby stories!!"

Simon must be getting to them

WOW - What?

This apparent admission by someone over there like mfbukowski is a shock to say the least. It looks as though one of the long time MADBoard stalwarts is advocating that the faithful throw in the towel on the historicity of the Book of Mormon.

For those of you who still attend, or maintain contact with active members, how common is this viewpoint nowadays?

Is mfbukowski and outlier with this PoV?

Is the LDS Church really ready to teach that their foundational scripture is a compilation of allegorical fantasies?

Are Simon and the rest of the critics finally getting through?

Is anyone else as surprised as I am?
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Arc
_Emeritus
Posts: 100
Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by _Arc »

Simon Southerton wrote:The significance of being able to detect evidence of a single Native American woman migrating to Iceland, but not a single Lamanite in the New World, hadn't escaped my attention.

For any who may have questioned whether Dr. Southerton is professional geneticist, his turn of phase above should remove all doubt.
At the end of one of the most profound scientific papers ever written, Watson and Crick added: "It has not escaped our attention that the specific pairing we have postulated immediately suggests a possible copying mechanism for the genetic material." James D. Watson and Francis H.C. Crick in Nature, April 25, 1953.
"The effort to understand the universe is one of the very few things which lifts human life a little above the level of farce and gives it some of the grace of tragedy." Steven Weinberg
_Arc
_Emeritus
Posts: 100
Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by _Arc »

mfbukowski wrote:Every alleged anachronism disappears if Joseph was teaching spiritual principles and not science or history.
When will we get over this nonsense??

Exiled wrote:Onward to a non-historical Book of Mormon, Ed Goble, onward.

Ed Goble and mfbukowski should have a sit-down.
"The effort to understand the universe is one of the very few things which lifts human life a little above the level of farce and gives it some of the grace of tragedy." Steven Weinberg
_Physics Guy
_Emeritus
Posts: 1331
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:38 pm

Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by _Physics Guy »

mfbukowski wrote:Every alleged anachronism disappears if Joseph was teaching spiritual principles and not science or history.

Mormonism is a demanding faith and most of its demands are to fill callings in its hierarchy. Most of its ceremonies are either duties or promotions in rank that make one eligible for new duties. So although Mormonism does have distinctive spiritual principles besides authority, without the authority of its ecclessiastical hierarchy the practice of Mormonism as it has been would collapse, as far as I can discern. So as far as practice is concerned it seems to me that the chief spiritual principle of Mormonism is the authority of its prophets.

The authority of Mormon prophets rests on Joseph Smith's miraculous production of ancient historical documents, does it not? If every story in the Book of Mormon had begun, "Once upon a time ..." and wrapped up with a moral, or if Smith had gone straight to "as God is, man may become" without telling any Nephite-Lamanite stories, then who would ever have trekked to Utah with a handcart?

Expecting that Mormonism should be able to disavow the historicity of its scriptures and nonetheless thrive as a purveyor of purely spiritual revelations seems to me like expecting General Motors to admit that the internal combustion engine was a hoax, stop making cars, and thrive as a marketing agency.
_aussieguy55
_Emeritus
Posts: 2122
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:22 pm

Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by _aussieguy55 »

In Cognitus comment on MAD "Ad-hominem attacks are pointless, but questioning his knowledge of the contents of the Book of Mormon is extremely relevant to the topic because his arguments are against a specific traditional misunderstanding of the text of the Book of Mormon. But a careful reading of the text doesn't support the traditional view, and therefore his "knowledge of what the Book of Mormon really says" should be in question since his arguments depend on that traditional misunderstanding."
"
Hilary Clinton " I won the places that represent two-thirds of America's GDP.I won in places are optimistic diverse, dynamic, moving forward"
_Simon Southerton
_Emeritus
Posts: 623
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:09 pm

Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by _Simon Southerton »

Arc wrote:
At the end of one of the most profound scientific papers ever written, Watson and Crick added: "It has not escaped our attention that the specific pairing we have postulated immediately suggests a possible copying mechanism for the genetic material." James D. Watson and Francis H.C. Crick in Nature, April 25, 1953.


Wow, I didn't realise I was channelling the godfathers of DNA. I am not worthy to be mentioned in the same sentence brother.
LDS apologetics --> "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up, which creates the scandal."
"Bigfoot is a crucial part of the ecosystem, if he exists. So let's all help keep Bigfoot possibly alive for future generations to enjoy, unless he doesn't exist." - Futurama
_Simon Southerton
_Emeritus
Posts: 623
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:09 pm

Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by _Simon Southerton »

aussieguy55 wrote:In Cognitus comment on MAD "Ad-hominem attacks are pointless, but questioning his knowledge of the contents of the Book of Mormon is extremely relevant to the topic because his arguments are against a specific traditional misunderstanding of the text of the Book of Mormon. But a careful reading of the text doesn't support the traditional view, and therefore his "knowledge of what the Book of Mormon really says" should be in question since his arguments depend on that traditional misunderstanding."
"


I wonders how he's getting on with convincing the Brethren they misunderstand the Book of Mormon?
LDS apologetics --> "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up, which creates the scandal."
"Bigfoot is a crucial part of the ecosystem, if he exists. So let's all help keep Bigfoot possibly alive for future generations to enjoy, unless he doesn't exist." - Futurama
_I have a question
_Emeritus
Posts: 9749
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:01 am

Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by _I have a question »

aussieguy55 wrote:mfbukowski on the other board made these nice comments (insults?)

"Sigh
It's just the old historic vs the newer spiritual understanding of our beliefs.

It's no different than Book of Mormon geography vs horses in the Book of Mormon, metallurgy, translation vs revelation, the Book of Abraham, and every other misunderstanding. Evolution. Young earth. Big Bang and ex nihilo, geocentric universe and flat earth!

Can't we see it's all the same argument, different day?

What a waste of time!!

Every alleged anachronism disappears if Joseph was teaching spiritual principles and not science or history.
When will we get over this nonsense??

Grow up people!

Grow up critics, somewhere there's a brain in your head that should get you past Santa Claus and baby stories!!"

Simon must be getting to them

He just called the Book of Mormon fiction, and believing it to be a record of an actual people akin to believing in Santa Claus. One wonders about that boards reaction had a critic of the Church made those comments...One also wonders what the Apostles think of the admonition for them to grow up...
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_Themis
_Emeritus
Posts: 13426
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:43 pm

Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by _Themis »

DrW wrote:Is mfbukowski and outlier with this PoV?


Yes he has some very different ideas about reality which you will have trouble finding a few in the church that think the same way.
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