Human remains found on Daybell propery

[_Jersey Girl]

Official confirmation. It's JJ and Tylee.

[_honorentheos]

I'd almost bet Lori gave him up as part of a plea deal. But we'll see..

The charges against Daybell appear to be related to concealing bodies, not for murder. Maybe they offered Vallow something like avoiding the death penalty to reveal where the kids were so they could be laid to rest and the family be able to grieve for them properly. But I don't think investigators were offering her lesser charges to get Daybell.

In their divorce documents, Vallow's ex had said something about Lori believing she was a resurrected god. And one of the family members has shared she believed at some point the kids had been turned into...zombies? Possessed by demons? It was something along the lines of believing that they no longer had souls due to evil forces fighting against her. It seemed like this discovery was only a matter of time as the investigators seemed to be tracking Vallow and Daybell but from a distance after they were found in Hawaii but otherwise not rushing to ensure they could adequately build the case. That suggests at some point they weren't acting to find and save the kids. Who knows what they believed with good reason but lacked enough evidence to press charges. It doesn't seem like they viewed the kids as being alive and at risk for some time, though.

Regardless, it's a terrible series of events. You have a couple of people who believe God gave them a red pill that revealed they were central to the end time narrative, chosen and special, and essentially Neos to our "matrix". Offered that chance to be Neo on the one hand, or one of billions of other insignificant coppertops, they took the red pill and started seeing events around them as significant in ways only they could understand. Now, two kids are dead plus at least three adults quite possibly removed from interfering with their important, unique, divinely bestowed purpose.

I'll be blunt about why I think that while this may be more extreme as an example, it is built on common escapist religious themes that I find revolting. How many times has a believer told non-believers they think life without God or religion would be meaningless? That people who have left religion behind must be miserable or live shallow, empty lives? That comes from red pill mentalities. You don't think there's a higher purpose, a divine plan, that you are special in some way? That's blue pill thinking for coppertops. Red pill thinkers have seen the matrix for what it is, hate the matrix, and long for Zion. Chosing to reject God belief is choosing to take the blue pill, to be one of billions of insignificant people whose lives have no meaning "in the grand scheme of it all". It's not enough to create meaning in a life with friends and family, a career and a life lived well. Or lived, period. That's depressing. So, while Daybell and Vallow are on the far end of the spectrum, the spectrum itself is partially to blame for all the Daybells and Vallows becoming what they become.

[_Lemmie]

I'd almost bet Lori gave him up as part of a plea deal. But we'll see..

The charges against Daybell appear to be related to concealing bodies, not for murder. Maybe they offered Vallow something like avoiding the death penalty to reveal where the kids were so they could be laid to rest and the family be able to grieve for them properly. But I don't think investigators were offering her lesser charges to get Daybell.

In their divorce documents, Vallow's ex had said something about Lori believing she was a resurrected god. And one of the family members has shared she believed at some point the kids had been turned into...zombies? Possessed by demons? It was something along the lines of believing that they no longer had souls due to evil forces fighting against her. It seemed like this discovery was only a matter of time as the investigators seemed to be tracking Vallow and Daybell but from a distance after they were found in Hawaii but otherwise not rushing to ensure they could adequately build the case. That suggests at some point they weren't acting to find and save the kids. Who knows what they believed with good reason but lacked enough evidence to press charges. It doesn't seem like they viewed the kids as being alive and at risk for some time, though.

Regardless, it's a terrible series of events. You have a couple of people who believe God gave them a red pill that revealed they were central to the end time narrative, chosen and special, and essentially Neos to our "matrix". Offered that chance to be Neo on the one hand, or one of billions of other insignificant coppertops, they took the red pill and started seeing events around them as significant in ways only they could understand. Now, two kids are dead plus at least three adults quite possibly removed from interfering with their important, unique, divinely bestowed purpose.

I'll be blunt about why I think that while this may be more extreme as an example, it is built on common escapist religious themes that I find revolting. How many times has a believer told non-believers they think life without God or religion would be meaningless? That people who have left religion behind must be miserable or live shallow, empty lives? That comes from red pill mentalities. You don't think there's a higher purpose, a divine plan, that you are special in some way? That's blue pill thinking for coppertops. Red pill thinkers have seen the matrix for what it is, hate the matrix, and long for Zion. Chosing to reject God belief is choosing to take the blue pill, to be one of billions of insignificant people whose lives have no meaning "in the grand scheme of it all". It's not enough to create meaning in a life with friends and family, a career and a life lived well. Or lived, period. That's depressing. So, while Daybell and Vallow are on the far end of the spectrum, the spectrum itself is partially to blame for all the Daybells and Vallows becoming what they become.

Extremely well said, honorentheos, thank you. It is a horrifying story. One can only hope the children were mostly unaware of their final plight, and did not suffer at the end.

Regarding the spectrum itself and the damage, here is today's offering, from a local spectrum believer:

The right question is whether [two specific persons who are not LDS ] [are] equal or superior to ordinary faithful Latter-day Saints?

Or is someone like [a non lds poster with established medicalc credentials] even competent, or honest, or an academic/scholar?

No words. It is a shameful statement to make.

[_Jersey Girl]

I'd almost bet Lori gave him up as part of a plea deal. But we'll see..

The charges against Daybell appear to be related to concealing bodies, not for murder. Maybe they offered Vallow something like avoiding the death penalty to reveal where the kids were so they could be laid to rest and the family be able to grieve for them properly. But I don't think investigators were offering her lesser charges to get Daybell.

Be patient. It has only just begun and we have no idea where it will end.

[_honorentheos]

To be honest, Jersey Girl, I'm not interested in voyeuristic watching the case. I'm pretty sure whatever happens, Daybell and Vallow will spend a fair amount of time in prison. They're terrible people and I don't care to give terrible people any more of my time and life than absolutely necessary because it can't be completely avoided. Vallow used to live here in Arizona and her ex was killed here. Because of that her backstory has been in the news more than his, even making headlines every so often. I don't know much about him, but she was apparently off the deep end before marrying Daybell.

But what struck me about this case is how thin the line is between someone like Vallow or Daybell believing they are some kind of herald of God ushering in the second coming on one hand, and what is generally acceptable or even admired beliefs about the necessity of being "in the world but not off the world". Lemmie is exactly right that the SeN crowd exemplifies just another range of options on the spectrum of red pill thinking. Someday, everyone who is engaging with them will get their comeupance and then, oh then, everyone will be sorted into their proper places. It in turn excuses all kinds of behaviour because the purpose of existence is to leave the matrix and, for the chosen, dwell in Zion. Or whatever that book claimed about the Mormon afterlife (ETA: Added Upon) that gave Peterson his hardon for Mormonism that the scriptures apparently couldn't.

I feel for the family, for the grandparents who seem like good people who genuinely held out hope the kids would be found alive. It's a terrible event. But also, the world is a constant stream of stories, good, bad, and in-between. I would be a liar to say I feel personal pain or loss. I can imagine how much it would hurt if it somehow was much closer to me, and through that feel for the family, for the lost futures that will never be for either Tylee or JJ. But there are limits to how genuine that can really be without becoming performance. I'd rather not.

In the end, SeN and Daybell/Vallow (as people) are of equal importance to me. That being, barely worth noticing outside of the cautionary message they convey that thinking oneself to be special is a sign one should take a hard look at why one feels the need to get sucked into that trap to begin with? And back away. Red pill? Blue pill? “F” off. Just live the gift life is the best you can and be grateful for the experience, for those you get to share it with. Maybe try to add to it, to do good as one can, to love the true, to appreciate and perhaps add to the beautiful. Just like everyone else can, and collectively create something that has meaning here, now, and for however long there may be others able to remember that until there isn't anyone who does. That's still pretty miraculous. Who needs godlike power and a special role in gods plan when one has a life and a chance to live it already? Given the odds and conditions in the vast, vast majority of the universe, that's pretty special. And we get to share that with every other person we interact with on any given day. That's a lot of inherent meaning. So much, it'd be a shame to waste it.

[_Lemmie]

Just live the gift life is the best you can and be grateful for the experience, for those you get to share it with. Maybe try to add to it, to do good as one can, to love the true, to appreciate and perhaps add to the beautiful. Just like everyone else can, and collectively create something that has meaning here, now, and for however long there may be others able to remember that until there isn't anyone who does. That's still pretty miraculous. Who needs godlike power and a special role in gods plan when one has a life and a chance to live it already? Given the odds and conditions in the vast, vast majority of the universe, that's pretty special. And we get to share that with every other person we interact with on any given day. That's a lot of inherent meaning. So much, it'd be a shame to waste it.

Thank you, honor. Your posts like this are treasures.

[_Physics Guy]

"Red pill thinking" is a nice metaphor (for people who have seen The Matrix) for willingness to believe that things are somehow really very different from how they seem to be. And red pill thinking can certainly be dangerous. In cases like this one it's hard to imagine how anyone could have acted like this without believing the crazy things that these people seem to have believed.

I'm afraid it's not as easy to pin down what all went wrong in this case as just to blame it all on red pill thinking, though, because red pill thinking is often good. Things really are very different from how they usually seem. The evidence that can persuade one to believe this is often quite abstract, and finding it almost always requires investments of effort that don't make sense without a fair amount of red pill thinking in the first place. Believing in atoms? Curved space? Viruses? Evolution? That the tiny twinkling lights in the sky are huge suns far away? That the planet is round? All of those seem to me to have come from red pill thinking initially, and frankly some of them still take a fair amount now.

Believing that one is a prophet is clearly not the same as believing that this Earth was also here hundreds of millions of years ago with rearranged continents and all different life forms. I'm just not sure that "red pill" versus "blue pill" is an accurate way to capture the fact that one belief is a stupid fantasy and the other is astonishing truth.

I'm more inclined to put the blame on the egocentrism. The problem isn't the pill. It's thinking that You Are The One.

[Guest]

Saddest of all is the Grandparent begged the S*** F****** for their grandkids. They in essence said go do whatever perverted Mormon s*** you want just let us have the kids. STUPID damned Mormons!

[_honorentheos]

Thank you, honor. Your posts like this are treasures.

Thanks, Lemmie. Hope things are well in your part of the country.

Off topic, but in the zeitgeist so I'll post it - I'm curious if you're able to share anything about how your University is planning to deal with classes this fall? Also, I'd be interested in your opinion on something. My daughter is a sophomore this year and last year ended ok but left her feeling like school might be messed up at the moment and worried she might be better off holding off on anything other than generals in the fall so she doesn't miss out on core curriculum information. Her thought being it's better to need an extra semester to graduate than it is to pay for a discount semester that hamstrings her education for the next two years. I can't answer her because I don't know but agreed it was a great question and worth being concerned about.

[_honorentheos]

I'm more inclined to put the blame on the egocentrism. The problem isn't the pill. It's thinking that You Are The One.

I agree with this in the broad sense it's about ego. I doubt anyone starts out thinking they are The One. It's a process. And, people in that process are on a specrrum. I guess it's what I mean by red pill thinking more so than questioning the obvious nature of things. It's one thing when a person feels a deep sense of humility and universal concern for others that is an outgrowth of their beliefs. It's quite another when ones belief system, whatever it may be, is used to perpetuate a narrative that a person is in a privileged class of people with special knowledge or, even more extreme, uniquely special that has an important part to play in some big plan. Or, knows the government is X, Y, Z. Or is better than the people around them. Or whatever it may be.

Skepticism can be egotistical or driven by a form of humility as well ( "I could be wrong, and don't know as much as I'd like to think I do"). No religion required.

The issue is with this idea the world is corrupted and requires those who would be clean to remain separate from it. At its worst, that separation turns to cleansing. Both are sick, in my opinion, and concerning. One can see both sides in the New Testament and in the stories it contains about Jesus. Different authors emphasized aspects of his life that, otoh, viewed the Jewish people as needing to be clean from the corruption of the Romans and religious hypocrites. But on the other, many of those stories include contrasting the religious leadership with Jesus and his willingness to minister and associate with those who weren't considered clean. Personally, I don't think this reflects on the historic Jesus but on the debates that gave rise to modern Christianity. It also means the seeds of both are present in the religious tradition.