Three Powerful Books

[_honorentheos]

I downloaded the free Kindle sample of Callister's book from Amazon and started reading. From the first chapter:

For a moment, I invite you to take a test that will help you determine whether the Book of Mormon is from God or is a fraud influenced by the devil. Ask yourself if the devil would be the author or instigator of the following statements from the Book of Mormon:

• “They who are filthy are the devil and his angels” (2 Nephi 9:16).
• “The devil . . . [is] the founder of murder, and works of darkness” (2 Nephi 26:22).
• “That which is evil cometh from the devil” (Omni 1:25).
• “The devil will not support his children at the last day, but doth speedily drag them down to hell” (Alma 30:60).
• “Yea, cry unto him against the devil, who is an enemy to all righteousness” (Alma 34:23).
• “The devil . . . rewardeth you no good thing” (Alma 34:39).

This is hardly a collection of accolades on behalf of the devil. What is the probability that the devil—the most arrogant, egotistical, and narcissistic of all beings—“prompted” Joseph to write these harsh condemnations against himself? In addition, ask yourself if the devil would be the author of the following:

• “Feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do” (2 Nephi 32:3).
• “And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation” (Helaman 5:12).
• “What manner of men ought ye to be? Verily I say unto you, even as I [Christ] am” (3 Nephi 27:27).
• “Come unto Christ, and be perfected in him” (Moroni 10:32).

Could these statements from the Book of Mormon possibly have been authored by the evil one—words that castigate the devil on one hand and, on the other hand, invite us to worship Christ and come unto Him? Some might argue that Satan tells half-truths and uses reverse psychology as part of his devilish strategy. That is true, but his methods always have a purpose, and that purpose is to ultimately draw people unto him and his ways. Thus, the key question becomes: does the Book of Mormon draw people unto the devil? And the resounding, unequivocal answer is no!

I can see why MG pointed out everyone brings their biases when reading. I'll be the first to admit this is a filter statement for me. If the author starts with the premise the Book of Mormon can't be a fraud because that would require it being authored under the influence of the devil, and the devil isn't going to talk bad about himself and positively about Christ, it's pretty clear the book is not for me. If Callister can't see the possibility of there being no such supernatural constraints, where a liar who is fine using the language of the Bible to sell his fraud is a possibility, then my bias is this is going to be a waste of my time to continue reading. To his point, his comment is practically teeing up for a Bible-believing Evangelical to come along and argue the Book of Mormon does, in fact, serve the devilish purpose of leading people away from the real Jesus and then that fight is on...but that's not a fight I'm interested in either. So, good riddance.

[_Philo Sofee]

Yeah it's a false set up at the start with only two possibilities which is always a red flag. It's dripping with the Mormon assumption and mind set, and they can't even see it. It's what convinced MG it was a good read since it turned his brain automatically onto the only real option, it's from God. All the rest is simply testimony and hence considered powerful by MG. It's yet another book I don't have to waste my time reading in order to already know it's conclusion, evidence and analysis be damned.

[Guest]

Yeah. I also think MG is a bit over confident in how solid the foundation is for claiming the Book of Mormon leads people to good rather than "evil" because it happens to lead MG to define what is good as being the same as being Mormon.

Is the fact belief in the Book of Mormon led people to follow Smith into the moral ditch that was and is polygamy something he takes into account?

What about how belief in the Book of Mormon served to confirm people into accepting the racism inherent in it's pages and perpetuated well into the present? That if there were a devil and he wanted to cause people to resist understanding humanity as all being one in the sight of God, the Book of Mormon has proven to be an effective tool for teaching racism and priestcraft? MG is firm in his beliefs about homosexuality and treating LBGT people as sinners while passing it off as hating the sin, not the sinner. He isn't interested in exploring if the Book of Mormon isn't, in fact, a perfect instrument for Doug exactly what Callister says it can't possibly do...because like MG, Callister isn't able to see the question of moral behaviour any way other than how Mormonism proclaims good and bad should be defined.

So yeah, if you start with the assumptions of what is good and bad from a Mormon worldview, assume the Book of Mormon was written with supernatural influence of the divine or the devil, and assume the devil won't lead a person into the life of good as defined by Mormonism, well. What conclusion is left but it must be divinely inspired?

[_Philo Sofee]

Very well put...

[_Dr Exiled]

How could Joseph have known that the devil couldn't write such marvelous chiasmatic prose, and in Early Modern English, the blessed language of God? Forget the lack of real evidence for historicity or the lack of israelite DNA in Native American populations or archeology that doesn't match or anthropology that doesn't match or linguistic impossibilities, or impossible population growth of the Nephites, etc., etc. Early Modern English .... Emod freakin' E!!!!!

[_Simon Southerton]

Previously I’ve mentioned two books that had a positive impact on my views in regards to the Book of Mormon:

By the Hand of Mormon (Terryl Givens)

Understanding the Book of Mormon (Grant Hardy)

A third one I would now add to the list:

A Case For the Book of Mormon (by Tad Callister)

https://www.amazon.com/Case-Book-Mormon ... 162972565X

These three books have had a big influence on me as I’ve read many books, pro and con.

Don’t rely on what others might say about any one of these books.

Regards,
MG

Why should we rely on your opinions MG or the opinions of Hardy, Givens or Callister? Some of us have learned to think for ourselves. Get rid of this racist nonsense then maybe we can talk.

“…wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them” (2 Nephi 5: 21)

“And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgressions and their rebellion against their brethren” (Alma 3: 6)

[_mentalgymnast]

Yeah. I also think MG is a bit over confident in how solid the foundation is for claiming the Book of Mormon leads people to good rather than "evil" because it happens to lead MG to define what is good as being the same as being Mormon.

Is the fact belief in the Book of Mormon led people to follow Smith into the moral ditch that was and is polygamy something he takes into account?

What about how belief in the Book of Mormon served to confirm people into accepting the racism inherent in it's pages and perpetuated well into the present? That if there were a devil and he wanted to cause people to resist understanding humanity as all being one in the sight of God, the Book of Mormon has proven to be an effective tool for teaching racism and priestcraft? MG is firm in his beliefs about homosexuality and treating LBGT people as sinners while passing it off as hating the sin, not the sinner. He isn't interested in exploring if the Book of Mormon isn't, in fact, a perfect instrument for Doug exactly what Callister says it can't possibly do...because like MG, Callister isn't able to see the question of moral behaviour any way other than how Mormonism proclaims good and bad should be defined.

So yeah, if you start with the assumptions of what is good and bad from a Mormon worldview, assume the Book of Mormon was written with supernatural influence of the divine or the devil, and assume the devil won't lead a person into the life of good as defined by Mormonism, well. What conclusion is left but it must be divinely inspired?

For me it’s not as much that the Book of Mormon leads or teaches towards that which is good, it’s that it teaches/leads towards Christ and His Atonement. That it claims to be an artifact from the ancient world to act as a conduit/connection with the Judeo-Christian tradition going back to the book of Genesis in which we read that we are created in the image of God.

I don’t look at Joseph’s polygamy as being a moral ditch in the absolutist fashion that you do.

Racism has existed throughout time immemorial, including within the pages of the Book of Mormon.

And no, I don’t subscribe to relativism when it comes to moral behavior, but that may have something to do with my belief in a creator God who loves and cares about His creations.

Regards,
MG

[_honorentheos]

So yeah, if you start with the assumptions of what is good and bad from a Mormon worldview, assume the Book of Mormon was written with supernatural influence of the divine or the devil, and assume the devil won't lead a person into the life of good as defined by Mormonism, well. What conclusion is left but it must be divinely inspired?

For me it’s not as much that the Book of Mormon leads or teaches towards that which is good, it’s that it teaches/leads towards Christ and His Atonement. That it claims to be an artifact from the ancient world to act as a conduit/connection with the Judeo-Christian tradition going back to the book of Genesis in which we read that we are created in the image of God.

I don’t look at Joseph’s polygamy as being a moral ditch in the absolutist fashion that you do.

Racism has existed throughout time immemorial, including within the pages of the Book of Mormon.

And no, I don’t subscribe to relativism when it comes to moral behavior, but that may have something to do with my belief in a creator God who loves and cares about His creations.

Regards,
MG

This doesn't change the observation other than you claim it is pushed back to the Bible rather than the Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith.

The underlying problems only multiply if you argue that the value in the Book of Mormon is built on Genesis. The Documentary Hypothesis, obvious mythical original for Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and the other patriarchs would demand to be answered or ignored. If you choose to ignore them because you like the idea of being created in Gods image that ties into Mormon notions of exaltation, you are indeed simply assuming an outcome and filtering out evidence that is incompatible.

Here's an exercise for you, MG. I'm curious what evidence you feel critics filter out to maintain their arguments rather than accommodating it in their understanding?

[_mentalgymnast]

I'm curious what evidence you feel critics filter out to maintain their arguments rather than accommodating it in their understanding?

Evidence that maintains the possibility of a creator God. To come to an absolutist position as to the non-existence of a creator is rather risky business in my book. Personally, I’m comfortable erring on the side of a personal God.

It’s got to start with God before taking the leap to the restoration of the Gospel.

https://www.closertotruth.com/topics/co ... e-universe

Regards,
MG

[_honorentheos]

I'm curious what evidence you feel critics filter out to maintain their arguments rather than accommodating it in their understanding?

Evidence that maintains the possibility of a creator God. To come to an absolutist position as to the non-existence of a creator is rather risky business in my book. Personally, I’m comfortable erring on the side of a personal God.

It’s got to start with God before taking the leap to the restoration of the Gospel.

https://www.closertotruth.com/topics/co ... e-universe

Regards,
MG

Evidence for a creator God, such as....?