Bednar (and Church) is helping spread COVID

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_Simon Southerton
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Bednar (and Church) is helping spread COVID

Post by _Simon Southerton »

I have many LDS and former LDS family members and friends, many of whom live in Utah. For many weeks I was openly praising the actions of the LDS Church. While they took too long to close temples, where many of the oldest members regularly attend, they were ahead of the curve with their unilateral decision to close meetinghouses. The number of cases in Utah reflected the success of these responsible social distancing measures.

For two months Utah had one of the lowest rates of spread of the virus. Then Utah started to open up. On the 24th May Mormons went back to church, albeit in groups of less than 100. Almost perfectly on cue, COVID cases started to spike about 5 days later, the mean incubation time for the virus. The growth in cases is now alarming.

It’s unlikely the spike is only the result of Mormons going back to church, since society was starting to leave lockdown around that time, but I have heard reports of wards where there have been clusters. Many Mormons are also full on Trump supporters and are likely to be dismissive of social distancing rules like their president.

On the 17th June Elder Bednar, an apostle and one of the most senior leaders of the Mormon Church, spoke at a law conference on religious freedom via a web link. His talk was reported in the Deseret News and on the LDS website. These are some of Bednar's comments that were quoted in the news reports.
“…𝙞𝙛 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙛𝙖𝙞𝙩𝙝𝙛𝙪𝙡 𝙖𝙧𝙚 𝙣𝙤𝙩 𝙜𝙖𝙩𝙝𝙚𝙧𝙞𝙣𝙜, 𝙨𝙤𝙤𝙣𝙚𝙧 𝙤𝙧 𝙡𝙖𝙩𝙚𝙧 𝙩𝙝𝙚𝙮 𝙬𝙞𝙡𝙡 𝙗𝙚𝙜𝙞𝙣 𝙩𝙤 𝙨𝙘𝙖𝙩𝙩𝙚𝙧”.

“𝙏𝙝𝙚 𝙥𝙤𝙬𝙚𝙧 𝙤𝙛 𝙜𝙤𝙫𝙚𝙧𝙣𝙢𝙚𝙣𝙩 𝙢𝙪𝙨𝙩 𝙝𝙖𝙫𝙚 𝙡𝙞𝙢𝙞𝙩𝙨,”

“𝙏𝙝𝙞𝙨 𝙩𝙞𝙢𝙚 𝙤𝙛 𝙧𝙚𝙨𝙩𝙧𝙞𝙘𝙩𝙞𝙤𝙣 𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝙘𝙤𝙣𝙛𝙞𝙣𝙚𝙢𝙚𝙣𝙩 𝙝𝙖𝙨 𝙘𝙤𝙣𝙛𝙞𝙧𝙢𝙚𝙙 𝙛𝙤𝙧 𝙢𝙚 𝙩𝙝𝙖𝙩 𝙣𝙤 𝙛𝙧𝙚𝙚𝙙𝙤𝙢 𝙞𝙨 𝙢𝙤𝙧𝙚 𝙞𝙢𝙥𝙤𝙧𝙩𝙖𝙣𝙩 𝙩𝙝𝙖𝙣 𝙧𝙚𝙡𝙞𝙜𝙞𝙤𝙪𝙨 𝙛𝙧𝙚𝙚𝙙𝙤𝙢,”

“𝙒𝙝𝙞𝙡𝙚 𝙗𝙚𝙡𝙞𝙚𝙫𝙚𝙧𝙨 𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝙩𝙝𝙚𝙞𝙧 𝙧𝙚𝙡𝙞𝙜𝙞𝙤𝙪𝙨 𝙤𝙧𝙜𝙖𝙣𝙞𝙯𝙖𝙩𝙞𝙤𝙣𝙨 𝙢𝙪𝙨𝙩 𝙗𝙚 𝙜𝙤𝙤𝙙 𝙘𝙞𝙩𝙞𝙯𝙚𝙣𝙨 𝙞𝙣 𝙖 𝙩𝙞𝙢𝙚 𝙤𝙛 𝙘𝙧𝙞𝙨𝙞𝙨, 𝙣𝙚𝙫𝙚𝙧 𝙖𝙜𝙖𝙞𝙣 𝙘𝙖𝙣 𝙬𝙚 𝙖𝙡𝙡𝙤𝙬 𝙜𝙤𝙫𝙚𝙧𝙣𝙢𝙚𝙣𝙩 𝙤𝙛𝙛𝙞𝙘𝙞𝙖𝙡𝙨 𝙩𝙤 𝙩𝙧𝙚𝙖𝙩 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙚𝙭𝙚𝙧𝙘𝙞𝙨𝙚 𝙤𝙛 𝙧𝙚𝙡𝙞𝙜𝙞𝙤𝙣 𝙖𝙨 𝙨𝙞𝙢𝙥𝙡𝙮 𝙣𝙤𝙣𝙚𝙨𝙨𝙚𝙣𝙩𝙞𝙖𝙡.”
Bednar even drew the false equivalence between restricting religious freedom and allowing people to purchase gas. People need gas to buy essential items to sustain life. They don’t need to gather in large numbers in churches to keep them alive!

For a state struggling with a significant spike in COVID cases, calling for less restrictions on gatherings is a thoughtless and poorly-timed message, given he leads the dominant religious group in Utah. Church gatherings are notorious for spreading the virus. Bednar’s comments are dangerous and ill advised and yet the LDS Church widely publicised them on its website and in the major Utah newspaper read by Mormons.

Bednar is forgetting that half the church does not live in the United States. They couldn't care less about the second amendment and the US constitution right now. The only thing most non-Americans know about the US constitution is that it is used to protect the right of Americans to buy semi-automatic weapons so they can shoot their countrymen more efficiently. That is the extent of it.

Many non-US members of the church live in countries with universal health care and strong social safety nets. These countries have far higher levels of trust in their governments, their scientific and health institutions and have for the most part been pretty content to accept that in these exceptional circumstances they need to do what the government has asked of them.

And the benefits of following our non-US government's COVID rules are plain to see. The number of new cases a day in all of Europe now numbers around 4,000 and is falling. In all of Asia, Australia and New Zealand it is far, far less. Australia gets concerned when we have more than 20 cases a day. The US is now approaching 30,000 new cases per day! [The US just topped 36,000 new cases]

It's not hard to imagine how non-US Mormons might feel reading Bednar complaining about government overreach. All I am hearing from my Australian Mormon relatives is praise for the wisdom of our government. There will be many non-US Mormons who will be very confused, if not alarmed, by Bednar’s obsession with individuals liberties and government interference at a time like this.

Bednar's comments will also be misconstrued by large numbers of American Mormons who hang off every word he says. Many will be inclined to feel more cynical about government health regulations and more inclined to flout social distancing rules.

It was a serious error of judgment for the church to publicise Bednar’s comments on the church's website. These views are completely Amerocentric and send a poor message at a critical time in the progress of the pandemic. If a senior religious leader in Australia published such an irresponsible article at a time like this they would risk being censored or even arrested.

https://www.Facebook.com/simon.southert ... 4775312589
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
LDS apologetics --> "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up, which creates the scandal."
"Bigfoot is a crucial part of the ecosystem, if he exists. So let's all help keep Bigfoot possibly alive for future generations to enjoy, unless he doesn't exist." - Futurama
_Dr Moore
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Re: Bednar (and Church) is helping spread COVID

Post by _Dr Moore »

Thanks, Simon, for this analysis and data. One of my relatives in Utah, a former Stake and Mission President, celebrated Bednar's comments in a call with me last night, for the clear and powerful prophetic voice of warning contained therein. They credit him for articulately pointing out the danger of governmental response to the Covid-19 as a long-term risk to religious liberty. He sincerely believes Bednar has raised a most serious voice of warning on some unseen danger of the US government restricting religious freedom. He is no longer worried about the pandemic, but worries greatly about this risk of losing freedoms. As I mentioned in this post last week, I suspect that this response is prescriptive by the brethren, as they may be maneuvering for leverage over LGBTQ+ rights.

Unfortunately, for now as it relates to the pandemic, this will only reinforce the dynamics you described here and make it more challenging for local church leaders in Utah and other regions to restrict church gatherings.
_Fence Sitter
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Re: Bednar (and Church) is helping spread COVID

Post by _Fence Sitter »

If it is safe to return to meetings, let's see upper leadership out there attending randomly selected wards and show up unannounced. Let them put their own lives on the lines to show just how safe it is.

Yeah, not going to happen.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Philo Sofee
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Re: Bednar (and Church) is helping spread COVID

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Fence Sitter wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:28 pm
If it is safe to return to meetings, let's see upper leadership out there attending randomly selected wards and show up unannounced. Let them put their own lives on the lines to show just how safe it is.

Yeah, not going to happen.
I second this. Let the brethren lead by example and demonstrate their priesthood and garments of protection are real and work. Gather in closed buildings with hundreds of people every single week for several months. Put your priesthood power where your blabber mouths are. If you're stupid enough to have faith in your myths, rather than medical science, them show us which one is actually real through your idiotic works, not your mere enimic faith.
Dr CamNC4Me
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_Dr LOD
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Re: Bednar (and Church) is helping spread COVID

Post by _Dr LOD »

My wife saw your Facebook post on this.

This will go down worse than the pickle talk. At least people didn’t die from following his lead on that one.

Utah is in for a bad go. Most of the problem stems from the Trump lead, unfortunately Bednar joined.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
_Philo Sofee
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Re: Bednar (and Church) is helping spread COVID

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:55 pm
Fence Sitter wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:28 pm
If it is safe to return to meetings, let's see upper leadership out there attending randomly selected wards and show up unannounced. Let them put their own lives on the lines to show just how safe it is.

Yeah, not going to happen.
I second this. Let the brethren lead by example and demonstrate their priesthood and garments of protection are real and work. Gather in closed buildings with hundreds of people every single week for several months. Sing with them all. Join their choirs and lift up your voices in song. Put your priesthood power where your blabber mouths are. If you're stupid enough to have faith in your myths, rather than medical science, them show us which one is actually real through your idiotic works, not your mere bland faith. Put up or shut up.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Re: Bednar (and Church) is helping spread COVID

Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

I thought it had a ring of desperation to it because it wouldn't be a big surprise if some members decided during the break not to return. I'm very curious how many.
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_Simon Southerton
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Re: Bednar (and Church) is helping spread COVID

Post by _Simon Southerton »

I have thought long about what motivated Bednar. I don't think it's religious freedom at all.

Consider how humiliating it has been for the leaders of the church to be told by health experts you can't hold church gatherings. For years and years the church has run Utah. They call all the shots. Then along comes invisible little SARS-CoV-2 and the impotence of the church is exposed. The pandemic has exposed how utterly useless thoughts and prayers are and how science is saving us from the worst of the ravages of the virus. The promise of a miraculous vaccine, delivered by science, must also be spinning their cognitive dissonance wheels.

If you read Bednar's talk he doesn't say they don't want to flout the rules. He wants the power back. He wants the church to be in a position to get the best medical advice and then deliver the message to the members. That way they can continue to publicly ridicule science and pretend to be extremely responsible at the same time. They need the sheep to think the church saved them. They want their cake back.

Just a few weeks ago we were being bombarded by arrogant TBMs praising the prophetic introduction of home centred church supported. Its like the prophet saw the pandemic coming. Now they are screaming about having too much of a good thing. The hypocrisy is utterly astounding.
LDS apologetics --> "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up, which creates the scandal."
"Bigfoot is a crucial part of the ecosystem, if he exists. So let's all help keep Bigfoot possibly alive for future generations to enjoy, unless he doesn't exist." - Futurama
_Dr Moore
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Re: Bednar (and Church) is helping spread COVID

Post by _Dr Moore »

Very interesting.
So possible theories for Bednar’s motivation are:
1. Prophetic detection of a clear and present danger to religious freedom
2. Church wants the power back
3. Posturing for LGBTQ battles to come
4. ??
_Simon Southerton
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Re: Bednar (and Church) is helping spread COVID

Post by _Simon Southerton »

Dr LOD wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:56 pm

This will go down worse than the pickle talk. At least people didn’t die from following his lead on that one.

Utah is in for a bad go. Most of the problem stems from the Trump lead, unfortunately Bednar joined.
I agree this piece will not age well. It's use by date may be in the next few weeks if Utah gets much worse.

I wish you folks could appreciate just how much of a tool Trump looks from outside the US. Almost all of US politics is right of Australian (and Western) politics. Last year they did a poll on Trump's approval among Australian right wing voters. Only 30% approved of Trump. If they did that poll again today his approval rating would be in the single digits among right wing voters. He is the most ignorant narcissist imaginable and the worst possible president to have at a time like this. It's sad to see the US in such incapable hands.

The church is collapsing in all western democracies. The alignment of the church with the right wing and Trump is a significant cause of that decline. (ignoring the truth bit for the moment) If Utah goes red in November there will be major problems ahead.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
LDS apologetics --> "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up, which creates the scandal."
"Bigfoot is a crucial part of the ecosystem, if he exists. So let's all help keep Bigfoot possibly alive for future generations to enjoy, unless he doesn't exist." - Futurama
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