Sad...

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_I have a question
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Re: Sad...

Post by _I have a question »

Chap wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:08 am
What if the board started to ignore him? Would that be such a terrible loss? He says or does very little nowadays that is either interesting in itself or significant outside his own shrinking clique.
Chap, as per usual you make a very good point. I'm going to commit to doing just that.
_Arc
_Emeritus
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Re: Sad...

Post by _Arc »

huckelberry wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:12 am
Arc, my view is the Salt Lake City church is a pretty stable institution that neither changes or fades very rapidly. I expect it to be trudging along much the same twenty years from now. How do you see this differently? Is it perhaps increasing personal distance making its presence fade for you. (not a bad thing if so I think)
Huckelberry,
Assuming that you live in Utah, your point of view is most likely from inside the bubble, geographically as well as philosophically. From outside the bubble (~99% of the world), I can assure you that things look very different. Please consider:
  • The "Mormon" brand has become so toxic that Dear Leader Nelson has decided to appropriate the name of an existing smaller church for use by the SLC LDS. When in trouble try rebranding.

    In spite of a series of cosmetic and sometimes flip flopped changes to policies regarding blacks and the LBGTQ community, LDS leadership, as well as a substantial portion of the rank and file, continue to consider members of these groups as "others" and "less than".

    Activity in the church is now in the range of 40% in the US and no more than 25% in many foreign countries.

    Young BIC members are abandoning the Mormon Church in record numbers.

    Membership growth is on course to fall below the rate of growth in the US and might well have done so by now.

    The apparent emphasis of the Church leadership on commercial ventures, rather than the welfare of their members and society at large, including the covert amassing of a treasury of more than a billions dollars, has cost the Church a great deal of credibility with many members, even in Utah.

    Where I live in the mission field, the wards are shrinking and consolidating, minority members are being discriminated against and some Mormon families are even electing to move back to Utah.

    Mormon missionaries are becoming synonymous with Jehovah's Witnesses and about as welcome in the community.
Like the hemorrhage of millennial generation support from Trump and the Republicans, the loss of younger LDS members makes the Church unsustainable in its present form in the long run. While a burnt out core is likely to remain, like that of the Quakers, Shakers and Scientologists.
"The effort to understand the universe is one of the very few things which lifts human life a little above the level of farce and gives it some of the grace of tragedy." Steven Weinberg
_Hagoth
_Emeritus
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Re: Sad...

Post by _Hagoth »

Arc wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:32 pm
Assuming that you live in Utah, your point of view is most likely from inside the bubble, geographically as well as philosophically. From outside the bubble (~99% of the world), I can assure you that things look very different.
But surely the addition of blue shirts for missionaries will turn everything around!
Arc wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:32 pm
While a burnt out core is likely to remain, like that of the Quakers, Shakers and Scientologists.
The difference being $150 Billion or so.

The burnt out core will be able to cruise along in extreme comfort for a long, long time. At least until somewhere along the line a Corporate Sole comes along who takes his ownership of the church's assets literally and gets a revelation that God wants him to have a magnificent mansion on a private island, fleets of Leer jets and yachts, and concubines.
"Be excellent to each other." - Bill and Ted
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” - Mark Twain
_SteelHead
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Re: Sad...

Post by _SteelHead »

From my perspective, we have greatly reduced the volume of actual Mormon discussion - discussing topics around doctrine and history. THE DCP threads are Meh for me, and I try to stay out of the politics threads. As no defenders actually participate anymore outside of MG, the real discussions seem to have taken a lull.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_Chap
_Emeritus
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Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: Sad...

Post by _Chap »

SteelHead wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:29 pm
From my perspective, we have greatly reduced the volume of actual Mormon discussion - discussing topics around doctrine and history. THE DCP threads are Meh for me, and I try to stay out of the politics threads. As no defenders actually participate anymore outside of MG, the real discussions seem to have taken a lull.
I have said this before, but maybe it bears repeating. This board is a victim of its own success. The Big Beast apologists who used to post here in the past were repeatedly and humiliatingly reduced to silence by the total destruction of such truth claims as they ventured to make on historical, archeological, linguistic, cultural and even (in the case of the 'scroll-length' stuff related to the Book of Abraham) mathematical topics. They have gone, never to return.

And all we have now is ... MG. It is as if, in our success as marine predators, we have killed all the whales, and fished out all the cod, and are left with nothing but the jellyfish.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Quasimodo
_Emeritus
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Re: Sad...

Post by _Quasimodo »

I'm having a little trouble figuring out how to reply to individual posts (any tips?) so this is a general reply to all. I'm happy to see so many old friends speaking up! Maybe we can salvage this board.

Shade's explanation of the problems here clears up lot. I hope that some message board savvy person can solve this and make it easy for old members to reconnect and new members to join.

We have a lot of very bright people that are still here. I wonder if any would be interested in looking into the problems and get us back up to running smoothly.

Thank you all!
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.

"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Sad...

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

How about you be the change you want to see in others? If the monkeys aren’t dancing to your liking you’re free to put on a new record and see what happens.

- Doc
_malkie
_Emeritus
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Re: Sad...

Post by _malkie »

Arc wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:32 pm
...
The apparent emphasis of the Church leadership on commercial ventures, rather than the welfare of their members and society at large, including the covert amassing of a treasury of more than a billions dollars, has cost the Church a great deal of credibility with many members, even in Utah.
...
If you are talking about the Ensign Peak Advisors account, the figure is (was?) north of 100 billion.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoy ... 9177006a7b

I heard the figure of 124 billion being bandied about at one point.
NOMinal member

Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
_Arc
_Emeritus
Posts: 100
Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: Sad...

Post by _Arc »

malkie wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:15 am
Arc wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:32 pm
...
The apparent emphasis of the Church leadership on commercial ventures, rather than the welfare of their members and society at large, including the covert amassing of a treasury of more than a billions dollars, has cost the Church a great deal of credibility with many members, even in Utah.
...
If you are talking about the Ensign Peak Advisors account, the figure is (was?) north of 100 billion.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoy ... 9177006a7b

I heard the figure of 124 billion being bandied about at one point.
Malkie,
You're right, missed a few zeros. No problem, though. What's an extra hundred billion or so between a Church and its financially strapped, tithe paying members? Just makes it all the more disturbing.
"The effort to understand the universe is one of the very few things which lifts human life a little above the level of farce and gives it some of the grace of tragedy." Steven Weinberg
_huckelberry
_Emeritus
Posts: 4559
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 2:29 am

Re: Sad...

Post by _huckelberry »

Arc wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:32 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:12 am
Arc, my view is the Salt Lake City church is a pretty stable institution that neither changes or fades very rapidly. I expect it to be trudging along much the same twenty years from now. How do you see this differently? Is it perhaps increasing personal distance making its presence fade for you. (not a bad thing if so I think)
Huckelberry,
Assuming that you live in Utah, your point of view is most likely from inside the bubble, geographically as well as philosophically. From outside the bubble (~99% of the world), I can assure you that things look very different. Please consider:
  • The "Mormon" brand has become so toxic that Dear Leader Nelson has decided to appropriate the name of an existing smaller church for use by the Salt Lake City LDS. When in trouble try rebranding.

    In spite of a series of cosmetic and sometimes flip flopped changes to policies regarding blacks and the LBGTQ community, LDS leadership, as well as a substantial portion of the rank and file, continue to consider members of these groups as "others" and "less than".

    Activity in the church is now in the range of 40% in the US and no more than 25% in many foreign countries.

    Young BIC members are abandoning the Mormon Church in record numbers.

    Membership growth is on course to fall below the rate of growth in the US and might well have done so by now.

    The apparent emphasis of the Church leadership on commercial ventures, rather than the welfare of their members and society at large, including the covert amassing of a treasury of more than a billions dollars, has cost the Church a great deal of credibility with many members, even in Utah.

    Where I live in the mission field, the wards are shrinking and consolidating, minority members are being discriminated against and some Mormon families are even electing to move back to Utah.

    Mormon missionaries are becoming synonymous with Jehovah's Witnesses and about as welcome in the community.
Like the hemorrhage of millennial generation support from Trump and the Republicans, the loss of younger LDS members makes the Church unsustainable in its present form in the long run. While a burnt out core is likely to remain, like that of the Quakers, Shakers and Scientologists.
Arc, I do not really have a working crystal ball, only a fake. I do not mind if you see the course of events differently than I do but just for comparing different perceptions I might explain myself a tiny bit. I have never lived in Utah and having been out of the church for fifty years do not hold a very Deseret philosophical viewpoint. I do have Mormon relatives in Utah however and siblings active in the church.

I live in a smallish town which had one ward when I was in Jr High. It is a stake center now. I see a long stream of large growth. Perhaps the slowing now is but a temporary fluctuation. (perhaps not)

The term Mormon was not held in high regard where I came from in the past, it was more likely to collect gentle derision. I cannot imagine any decrease in favor for the nickname that would need rebranding now.

Welcomed Mormon missionaries? I thought the welcome door slam has long been standard fair. People in the past have been suspicious of Mormons. They have horns and extra wives you know.

More young people abandoning the church? Perhaps, and perhaps many like my sister who left when going to college but returned and went on a mission around age 30. I do not actually know the future path for the church on this , I have some curiosity to see.

The book of Abraham papyrus was found late 1960s(68?) did that burst the churches growth bubble? No. At that time the church was actively dismissing civil rights for negoes because of the churches racial policies. Did that cause church collapse? Hardly.

For better or worse there is significant institutional stability.
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