MG "The personal pronoun referencing first person you is found 25 times, to my count, in a short span of words. It’s not infrequently that critics are observed saying, in one form or another, “Show me a sign or I will not believe.”
lol. Your reading comprehension is as bad as always if you thought my post had anything to do with sign-seeking.
Mine did. Because that’s what I see a number of people here doing. You included. Alma 32 has application to your previous post.
Maybe another thread will help me complete the process of destroying any credibility I imagined having to everyone’s satisfaction, including my own.
Dear Reverend, you are far too hard on yourself! I know we tussle regularly and disagree on many things, but your credibility is certainly not at risk. I always find your posts extremely valuable, and yes, I will admit, occasionally irritating, but how boring would it be otherwise? Your vast knowledge and interesting perspective are always appreciated. Thank you for participating here.
"How Many in a Drove?
The problem of overoptimism also works the other way, as some are overoptimistic about the Church losing members. Returning to our original question, are youth leaving the Church in droves? Well, that depends. How many youth are in a drove? The English term drove referred to animals driven or the path along which they were driven and was metaphorically transferred to any crowd or multitude, especially when moving as a body.44 Are youth mindless animals herded by adults and institutions or driven about by every wind of doctrine? This seems unlikely. Philology, then, does not tell us much in this case. It is important to realize that the story about young people leaving the Church in droves is part of a particular narrative,45 one that is largely untrue."
Gee, John (2020-05-10). Saving Faith: How Families Protect, Sustain, and Encourage Faith . RSC, BYU, Deseret Book. Kindle Edition.
Gee's mangling of information so that it fits what he wants to say is also present in this extensive examination of what constitutes "a drove" (it goes on for page after page). The first thing to say is he picked the phrase "leaving in droves" despite already making the point that the General Authority being referenced (Gee refuses to use Elder Jensen's name, presumably because he doesn't want people doing their own research into what he actually said) didn't actually say that. If Jensen didn't say it then there's no need to try and minimise what "leaving in droves" means in terms of actual numbers. The problem Gee refuses to acknowledge is what Jensen actually said...
Q: Is the Church aware of that problem? Is there anything…I mean, the new manuals would help, I guess, “inoculation” within terms of youth would help. What about people who are already leaving in droves?
A: We are aware. Maybe I’ll just say this: You know what, I often get this question, “Do the brethren really know?” They do.
Q: [obscured by cross-talk]
A: And I’m not speaking of me; I’m speaking of the fifteen men that are above me in the hierarchy of the Church. They really do know. And they really care. And they realize that, maybe, since Kirtland we’ve never had a period of—I’ll call it apostasy—like we’re having right now, largely over these issues.
So in an examination of the claim around how many young people are leaving the Church, Gee should be addressing the comment "since Kirtland we’ve never had a period of—I’ll call it apostasy—like we’re having right now". But he doesn't do that, it's too specific a phrase, it's too credible because that is what Jensen actually said. Instead he chooses to go to great lengths examining what constitutes "a drove". Cheap, lazy, deliberately misleading.
Gee also claims that the narrative of people leaving the Church "is largely untrue". THEN WHY THE NEED FOR THE BOOK JOHN? But Gee does not supply any evidence to support his statement. Where are the attendance figures that would settle the matter once and for all? Gee is scrabbling around in the dark trying to sound knowledgable about current activity levels in the Church using decades old non faith specific data whilst trying to also maintain that there isn't a problem. Readers of his book might start off being unaware of an apostasy problem in the Church, but within a few chapters they'll realise Gee is trying too hard to explain something he claims isn't happening. He's going to great lengths to explain the man behind the curtain whilst simultaneously claiming there isn't a man behind the curtain. It's a truly bizarre publication.
This was where the thread was at before it was spiked.
Dear Reverend, you are far too hard on yourself! I know we tussle regularly and disagree on many things, but your credibility is certainly not at risk. I always find your posts extremely valuable, and yes, I will admit, occasionally irritating, but how boring would it be otherwise? Your vast knowledge and interesting perspective are always appreciated. Thank you for participating here.
Thank you, Lemmie. It is good to have challenges from colleagues, on the one hand, and a kind reminder that one is part of a family of sorts here at Cassius U., on the other. I appreciate it.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
"How Many in a Drove?
The problem of overoptimism also works the other way, as some are overoptimistic about the Church losing members. Returning to our original question, are youth leaving the Church in droves? Well, that depends. How many youth are in a drove? The English term drove referred to animals driven or the path along which they were driven and was metaphorically transferred to any crowd or multitude, especially when moving as a body.44 Are youth mindless animals herded by adults and institutions or driven about by every wind of doctrine? This seems unlikely. Philology, then, does not tell us much in this case. It is important to realize that the story about young people leaving the Church in droves is part of a particular narrative,45 one that is largely untrue."
Gee, John (2020-05-10). Saving Faith: How Families Protect, Sustain, and Encourage Faith . RSC, BYU, Deseret Book. Kindle Edition.
Gee's mangling of information so that it fits what he wants to say is also present in this extensive examination of what constitutes "a drove" (it goes on for page after page). The first thing to say is he picked the phrase "leaving in droves" despite already making the point that the General Authority being referenced (Gee refuses to use Elder Jensen's name, presumably because he doesn't want people doing their own research into what he actually said) didn't actually say that. If Jensen didn't say it then there's no need to try and minimise what "leaving in droves" means in terms of actual numbers. The problem Gee refuses to acknowledge is what Jensen actually said...
So in an examination of the claim around how many young people are leaving the Church, Gee should be addressing the comment "since Kirtland we’ve never had a period of—I’ll call it apostasy—like we’re having right now". But he doesn't do that, it's too specific a phrase, it's too credible because that is what Jensen actually said. Instead he chooses to go to great lengths examining what constitutes "a drove". Cheap, lazy, deliberately misleading.
Gee also claims that the narrative of people leaving the Church "is largely untrue". THEN WHY THE NEED FOR THE BOOK JOHN? But Gee does not supply any evidence to support his statement. Where are the attendance figures that would settle the matter once and for all? Gee is scrabbling around in the dark trying to sound knowledgable about current activity levels in the Church using decades old non faith specific data whilst trying to also maintain that there isn't a problem. Readers of his book might start off being unaware of an apostasy problem in the Church, but within a few chapters they'll realise Gee is trying too hard to explain something he claims isn't happening. He's going to great lengths to explain the man behind the curtain whilst simultaneously claiming there isn't a man behind the curtain. It's a truly bizarre publication.
This was where the thread was at before it was spiked.
So Gee has constructed a straw-man in a published book to attack a church leader that he has a disagreement with? Likely over another matter. Maybe the SCMC needs to look into this.
So Gee has constructed a straw-man in a published book to attack a church leader that he has a disagreement with? Likely over another matter. Maybe the SCMC needs to look into this.
It is beyond clear that Gee has some simmering anger over Jensen's willingness to tell the truth.
First he point blank refuses to name him in the book. That's either simple childish pettiness, or else Gee doesn't want to give the reader sufficient references to go looking at what Jensen actually said. Gee doesn't want to have to rebut what Jensen actually said - he can't, it's too well documented that 18 - 30 apostasy is a problem in the Church. So instead he focus's the readers attention on a phrase he knows Jensen didn't say and spends a lot of time unnecessarily (but deliberately) splitting hairs over the meaning of the word drove.
Yes it's a very badly constructed straw-man, yes he has an axe to grind with Jensen and he's using his book to grind it. Not only that, the premise of his book is that FP and Q15 are simply not doing a good enough job of retaining 18 - 30 year olds, and are not giving parents and leaders sufficient resources to help them mitigate the exodus levels not seen since the Kirtland era apostasy. It is no wonder that the Maxwell Institute chose to distance themselves from Gee.
Kwaku El is claiming there is a campaign to get Dr. Gee's book pulled from Deseret Book and the BYU Religious Studies Center. Today he tweeted the following:
1. PLS RETWEET.
Hey everyone, please send a nice email or call to @DeseretBook
Calvin misrepresented Prof John Gee & they’re being pressured to pull his book. He is the top scholar on The Book of Abraham, and this attack on him is a way to discredit his monumental work..
2. ..giving evidence of the restoration. Calvin’s poor faith tweet is seemingly coordinated with the antimormon podcast’s (MormonStories) recent attack on Professor Gee. An attack video over 5 hours long.
Gee is one of the best scholars in the church, and he has given us waves of new defenses and evidences for TBOA. Antimormons know that tearing down TBOA is a hard punch at the church—this is solely an attempt to hurt a large portion of academic work
3. keeping our doctrine afloat, in a historical and academic lense.
Calvin has tried to ruin the life of his family, and lost in court. He’s now trying to take down John Gee. Don’t let him win!!
5. Let Deseret Book & Religious Studies Center know that this is a mob attack by antimormons & that you support John Gee and his work, much of which has been stamped with approval by the Bretheren
Almost three and a half years ago, my book An Introduction to the Book of Abraham was announced by Deseret Book. When it was announced a certain individual or group of individuals launched a campaign to have the book suppressed. This delayed the release of the book a number of months (it was over a year from the announcement of the book to its actual release). To forestall something similar happening I have waited to announce my new book, Saving Faith, until it has actually come off the press.
“A scholar said he could not read the Book of Mormon, so we shouldn’t be shocked that scholars say the papyri don’t translate and/or relate to the Book of Abraham. Doesn’t change anything. It’s ancient and historical.” ~ Hanna Seariac
Holy crap. I'd love to see this guy share these ideas through Interpreter and at Sic et Non.
Why does Kwaku need a rally of support for Gee? If the Brethren unilaterally support Gee as Kwaku says, and as the apologists generally claim about themselves, to be highly favored by the Brethren, then shouldn't one phone call fix this problem?
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.
LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
Who knew a doctorate in egyptology didn't qualify someone to make recommendations regarding child and sexual abuse? I wonder if Joseph knew?
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen
Your vast knowledge and interesting perspective are always appreciated. Thank you for participating here.