New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

[_Fence Sitter]

I think it is worth repeating, something Chris Smith pointed out on this board years ago: Chandler had spent the last couple of years before he showed up in Kirtland, touring the east coast with the consignment of Egyptian artifacts and had ample time and exposure listening to the leading experts of the day comment on them. When Chandler arrived in Kirtland he spent some hours with Joseph Smith talking about the mummies and their papyri, after which Joseph Smith took some of the papyri home to examine it. He returned the next day with a partial explanation of its content, much of which agreed with what Chandler had told him the day before. What a shock! Chandler immediately congratulated Smith on his ability to regurgitate what he, Chandler had simply told him the day before. It is like the used car salesman who gushes about his potential sales customer's ability to spot the best car on the lot. "Why yes Mr Smith, that Ford Pinto has a great safety record, how did you know?"
So the 'lucky guesses" one may find are simply Joseph Smith repeating what Chandler told him about the artifacts. Where Joseph Smith gets it wrong is when he has to make up his own uniformed guesses.

[Guest]

Sadly, this board has been destroyed as a reference source in Google due to the problems associated with the latest board upgrade. I'm thinking about going over to the Forumotion backup board and inserted a bunch of Book of Abraham thread material from Mormon Discussions so that people can pull it up when Googling. Perhaps I can get Liz to insert a section under Terrestrial entitled "Book of Abraham" where these threads can be inserted? So much material has been lost on this board and that's sad.

https://mormondiscussions.forumotion.co ... rial-forum

[_Dr Exiled]

Listening to this podcast is a must. Ritner destroys the apologists again and he confirms why outside experts don't usually bother with Mormon claims - the silliness and ridiculousness of the claims are so obvious that it isn't worth the time. (Gee, Muhlstein, Carmack, Skousen, etc., please stand down before you embarrass yourselves further). I can't wait for the next installments.

[_Shulem]

Listening to this podcast is a must. Ritner destroys the apologists again and he confirms why outside experts don't usually bother with Mormon claims - the silliness and ridiculousness of the claims are so obvious that it isn't worth the time. (Gee, Muhlstein, Carmack, Skousen, etc., please stand down before you embarrass yourselves further). I can't wait for the next installments.

Yeah, the next installments will likely cover the Facsimiles in more detail and the Kirtland Papers. I like how they started out with Facsimile No. 1 after the long introductions and getting acquainted. RFM is pretty familiar with the Facsimile problems as is Ritner in a most general sense. RFM has the burden of asking the right questions in the best way in order to obtain answers that smack down the Book of Abraham in a way that kills every apologetic angle. I'm really hoping that Facsimile No. 3 is discussed in detail and especially Anubis and the missing snout. Then of course, there is always the question of the "king's name" which I go on and on about and for very good reason. It destroys the apologetic of a direct or literal translation in a conventional sense. Brian Hauglid was particularly concerned with that single point. It's a death blow. It bleeds right over to the entire translation of the Book of Abraham showing it was ALL bogus.

Party time with the Book of Abraham! And we get to laugh at Mormonism at the apologists expense. They are left to fall back on a mutated Catalyst Theory but when comparing that with the original claims made by the founders of Mormonism it is proven that the Catalyst Theory is in direct opposition of what was originally claimed and is actually an apostate view which would have angered Joseph Smith to no end.

[_aussieguy55]

I wonder what Smith would have made of the Fac 1 if it was intact with the reclining figure holding his penis and the standing figure with a Jackel Head.

[_Shulem]

I wonder what Smith would have made of the Fac 1 if it was intact with the reclining figure holding his penis and the standing figure with a Jackel Head.

He would have mutilated the papyrus by peeling it back and then instruct Reuben Hedlock to fill in the lacuna according to his specifications. That's what he did with Anubis in Fac 3. And the original vignette is missing to this day. I wonder why?

Smith didn't give a damn about the papyrus other than using it to serve his purposes and private translations.

Mormon apologists today don't care about the truth. They have an agenda. Their agenda is founded upon lies.

[_consiglieri]

We recorded a lengthy part two today, covering the second and third facsimiles.

I simply had to mention the remarkable find of a certain poster here that the lead plate for Fac. 3 originally gave Anubis a snout but for some reason was chiseled away before printing commenced.

Dr. Ritner was suitably impressed with the scholastic acumen required to make this find.

[_Dr Exiled]

We recorded a lengthy part two today, covering the second and third facsimiles.

I simply had to mention the remarkable find of a certain poster here that the lead plate for Fac. 3 originally gave Anubis a snout but for some reason was chiseled away before printing commenced.

Dr. Ritner was suitably impressed with the scholastic acumen required to make this find.

Shulem and his posts, scholarship, and second token thread are reasons why this board needs to be preserved. What is the King's name again, Dr. Gee? Muhlstein?

[_Shulem]

We recorded a lengthy part two today, covering the second and third facsimiles.

I simply had to mention the remarkable find of a certain poster here that the lead plate for Fac. 3 originally gave Anubis a snout but for some reason was chiseled away before printing commenced.

Dr. Ritner was suitably impressed with the scholastic acumen required to make this find.

Looking forward to this podcast more than ever! I have to think that it was a richly rewarding experience for you and extremely satisfying to pull that off.

Very glad you mentioned the chiseled snout. The apologists are going to have to deal with it eventually -- their silence on the matter is a sign that they don't want to discuss it let alone think about it. It's a damning piece of evidence to show that the god's face was mutilated in order to meet the design and purpose for Smith's translation in the Times and Seasons. Nobody is going to deny the fact that the original is a jackal head with a jackal eye & ear, but what the hell happened to the nose? This mystery concerning the Joseph Smith papyrus must scare the apologists because it's proof that the papyrus was altered and tampered with in order to coincide with Smith's perceptions of what he wanted expressed -- never mind the original or the idea that Abraham drew the vignette -- it shows that Smith took things into his own hands -- "written by the hand of Smith".

I'll bet this really, really, bothers Gee.

[_Shulem]

Shulem and his posts, scholarship, and second token thread are reasons why this board needs to be preserved. What is the King's name again, Dr. Gee? Muhlstein?

You know, I really, really appreciate you saying that. Sometimes I wonder if my specialized work on the Book of Abraham here on the board is appreciated or has it just become a tiresome rant?

Yeah, the second token thread down in telestial is a real piece of work! It's there to demonstrate just how silly the whole thing is and the meaning behind it that members can't talk about because of the temple gag order. I have to think that if Mormons were to actually talk about it they would come to terms with just how silly it is and lose the desire to practice the ritual.

I have to admit that it did take the use of ALCOHOL to give me the courage to do that thread. I would have been reticent or too afraid to do it because it's so graphic, negative, and insults a sacred ritual had by people who think they are doing something wonderful. If it wasn't for the ALCOHOL, I never would have got that thread off the ground and the token would not have been exposed in that manner.

So, the ALCOHOL, when used, has been a silver lining. Shades doesn't quite get that but that's okay with me. The alcohol gave me the courage to push the villain off the cliff.