The Book of Abraham and the Kirtland Egyptian Papers

[_Holy Ghost]

I've read where apologists assert that the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (GAEL) and other writings that comprise the Kirtland Egyptian Papers (KEP) collection were an effort made by Joseph Smith's scribes after the Book of Abraham had already been rendered into English. The KEP is thus dismissed as nothing more than a post-Book of Abraham effort to ascertain an alphabet and grammar of ancient Egyptian language. If so, then the KEP does not tie the Book of Abraham to the papyrus found and recovered in 1967.

On the other hand, given that the Egyptian characters in the alphabet are set forth in the same order, left to right, as they appear in the papyrus found in 1967, if the KEP was prepared first or simultaneously with the development of the Book of Abraham in English, it would seem that the KEP were some sort of working papers, notes, etc. to assist in the development. If so, the KEP ties the Book of Abraham inextricably to the papyrus found in 1967, and would be rather damning against Joseph Smith's claims. After all, those characters on the papyrus do not translate into the text of the Book of Abraham.

My question for this board is therefore sort of a chicken or egg one. What evidence is there for the KEP being (a) before, (b) contemporaneously developed with, or (c) after the development of the English text of the Book of Abraham?

[_Kevin Graham]

The first installment of the Book of Abraham was published in the Times and Seasons in 1842. It only included Abr 1:1-2:18, which is precisely where the Kirtland Egyptian Papers ended when they were dictated in 1835.

So if the entire Book of Abraham was already produced prior to the Fall of 1835, then why wasn't it all published seven years later, and why did they only publish the exact amount that appeared in the dictated manuscripts?

Gee lies about this and says Joseph Smith's 1842 journal entry says he was only "editing," the text but it doesn't say that at all. It explicitly says he would be TRANSLATING for the next installment, meaning everything after Abr 2:18.

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... 4d089337e5

Posting as Xander:

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/56 ... haracters/

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/55 ... er-theory/

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/55 ... hallenged/

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/56 ... ologetics/

Here is an archive of other discussions when I posted as dartagnan:
http://mormoncurtain.infymus.com/topic_ ... raham.html

[_Shulem]

Mormon apologists will agree that the men of Kirtland who were responsible for the KEP were NOT filled with the Holy Ghost while producing it. When it comes to the KEP and all the hours and days producing that fruitless work, the Holy Ghost was nowhere to be found. Away with the Spirit! Let the Holy Ghost depart when the brethren are working on the KEP.

The brethren said, "Depart from us O Spirit of the Lord, we have no part of thee while working on the KEP, thus DEPART, get lost, scram, “F” off, Spirit."

[_Philo Sofee]

THANK YOU for all those very important links Kevin Graham! The entire discussion in those links helped me realize how hoodwinked I had been all those years as an apologist. Very nice to have them all here in one place!

[_Shulem]

The things contained in the so-called Kirtland Egyptian Papers were revelations as far as Joseph Smith was concerned. They were on par with the Doctrine and Covenants but had not been published as such but were being maintained and kept as a record until such time as they might be published along with other revealed writings such as the Book of Joseph.

Turn to the official history and get a flavor of how Joseph Smith thought the HOLY GHOST was directly influencing him in these matters:

Joseph Smith, History

26 September 1835 Saturday
September 26th. This evening, the “Twelve”

27 September 1835 Sunday
September 27th. He attended meeting: Brethren, Thomas B. Marsh, David W. Patten, Brigham Young & Heber C. Kimball preached, and broke bread. The Lord condescended to pour out his spirit, and the souls of his servants were edified.

1 October 1835 Thursday
October first, He stayed at home and labored on the Egyptian Alphabet in company with his brethren O Cowdery & W W. Phelps. The System of Astronomy was unfolded.

[_Shulem]

1 October 1835 Thursday
October first, He stayed at home and labored on the Egyptian Alphabet in company with his brethren O Cowdery & W W. Phelps. The System of Astronomy was unfolded.

Get a load of Smith's revealed astronomy on page 24!

Second part 5th Degree

Read the whole thing and see what the "spirit" "unfolded" in the wacky mind of Smith and his scribes.

Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language, circa July–circa November 1835

I don't doubt at all had Smith survived he would have canonized this crap. No doubt about it. These were not speculative writings. They were inspired writings given to them by the Spirit as it was revealed by revelation. Today's apologists are in denial and lie to themselves in order to save their testimonies because the alternative means they have to quit the Church.

[_Shulem]

Mormon apologists have long attempted to blame the scribes. Blame the scribes! They did it! They were uninspired and devoid of the influence of the Holy Ghost.

It's all so silly.

Here is a page written from the KEP in JOSEPH SMITH'S own handwriting who just so happen to be a SCRIBE in this instance so the apologists can blame Joseph Smith too. This is all so telling. Here, click the link and see what Joseph Smith wrote with his own hand and tell me if you think he was feeling the Spirit while writing this garbage.

Hey Joseph, you're writing garbage and you don't have the Spirit you lying bastard for the Lord!

Egyptian Alphabet, circa Early July–circa November 1835 English in handwriting of Joseph Smith,

I love to shove this right down the throats of the apologists including Hugh Nibley.

[_Shulem]

My question for this board is therefore sort of a chicken or egg one. What evidence is there for the KEP being (a) before, (b) contemporaneously developed with, or (c) after the development of the English text of the Book of Abraham?

Apologists would love to be able to prove that the entire manuscript of the Book of Abraham text was complete prior to Joseph's grammar of the Egyptian language. This however can't be proven from an apologetic viewpoint but they postulate the KEP was a working project after the fact and was not a God breathed work of art.

One very important thing that gets lost in the above argument and even Hugh Nibley was careful to tread lightly was the understanding that the KEP is for the most part universally considered a failed project on all sides of the argument. Apologists generally do anything they can to walk it back and make the project appear less important and make every effort to get it as far as they can from Smith as if he had little do to do with it.

But in light of all this and when taking into consideration just how much influence and involvement Smith had with the project, the apologists are left wondering where was the Holy Spirit in all this? These were times of revelation and even the writing of the Doctrine and Covenants was at play. So how does Smith sandwich his lack of inspiration and withdrawal of the Spirit between his real revelations and his Egyptian grammar? It's like Smith is talking out of both sides of his mouth at the same time. Revelation coming out of the left cheek of the D&C and the spirit of man and error out of the right cheek of the KEP! The whole thing creates a ridiculous scenario for the apologists to defend. That's supposed to be how a prophet, seer, and revelator deals with the Spirit? In reality it's a mass of confusion and a case of the right hand not knowing what the left is doing.

Bottom line, Smith was making everything up on the go. All his revelations were simply from his own mind. The D&C and the grammar -- everything! Two cheeks and one mouth!