Did those pesky 116 pages really matter?

[_kairos]

Joseph Smith said "all is lost" when MH showed up without the "bacon"(those translated 116 pages ) of the Book of Mormon.

Help me out here- Joseph Smith still had access to the plates of Lehi? and his magic seer stone and the urim and thummin so why did not OC tell Joseph to get back to work and "retranslate" the 116 pages? He had everything he needed IF he was truly translating by the power of God. But no he claimed he would use the plates of Nephi to redevelop the front end of the Book of Mormon.

So the question in my mind did Brodie or Vogel or Bushman or any of the mopologists give some reasoned rationale why losing the 116 pages would have Joseph scream "all is lost". we know he could not tell a "A" from "Z' from those figures on the plates so he really was up "s*it" creek until he came up with the nephi plates.

thoughts?

k

[_huckelberry]

For Brodie the reason would be simple. He had no means to recreate them. Any attempt would be approximate and would show Josephs limitations.

[_Shulem]

Smith loaned the original to Harris. He did not have a copy - -there was no backup. When he gave Harris the manuscript he gave him all he had on the Book of Mormon. There wasn't any way to reproduce what was on the sole manuscript. Smith had to come up with an excuse and start from scratch.

[_kairos]

Let me clarify.

A TBM or historian like Bushman believes Joseph Smith had the plates dug up from Cumorah. Would not aTBM think "he didn't lose the plates only the 116 pages" so the TBM would say-"should be no big deal-Joseph could have redone the 116 pages even if they were off a little. He really didn't need to come up with second stack of plates to rework the front end of the Book of Mormon.

If you believe Joseph Smith had no plates or fake plates, he was in deep doodoo until he concocted the scheme of the second set of plates.

k

[_huckelberry]

Kairos, reaching deep into my memory I believe i find that Joseph Smiths explanation was that he believed people would alter the version and then claim he could not reproduce it. He stated that he was inspired to not to play that game. The church view would be that and that it proceeded by Gods instruction who had prepared for the problem from the beginning.

[_Shulem]

It was a test from God who proves the faithful in all things.

I know the Church is trooo.

Amen

[_Meadowchik]

Kairos, reaching deep into my memory I believe i find that Joseph Smiths explanation was that he believed people would alter the version and then claim he could not reproduce it. He stated that he was inspired to not to play that game. The church view would be that and that it proceeded by Gods instruction who had prepared for the problem from the beginning.

This is the answer from Joseph Smith's account of the crisis as recorded in the Doctrine & Covenants.

[_Physics Guy]

It's obvious that Smith had thought a lot about how he would be discredited when his second version of the missing pages didn't match the originals. He had been making a living from deception for a while at that point, though, so it occurred to him pretty quickly that he could always claim that it was the other guys who had altered the originals.

Then the wiser and older con artist of his imagination counseled him even better: just don't get into that pissing match. Forget the missing pages and start over. A lot of writers would be happy to do a restart after a hundred pages or so, getting rid of stuff that's proving awkward and working in the great new ideas that have come in the meantime. The notion that the other guys could have fudged the originals to discredit Smith becomes the excuse for avoiding the challenge.

Smith didn't just give this excuse for himself, though. He put it into the mouth of God.

Behold, I say unto you, that you shall not translate again those words which have gone forth out of your hands ... For, behold, if you should bring forth the same words they will say that you have lied and that you have pretended to translate, but that you have contradicted yourself. And, behold, they will publish this ...

I'm surprised Mormons don't find it unsettling how much God sounds like that older and wiser con artist here. It's even worse that God is actually really long-winded about this, saying the same things over and over through all of D&C 10 like a shyster trying to win over a skeptical mark with sheer persistence.

And it's quite a come-down for God. "Behold, they have stolen the sacred records from my chosen prophet!" The God of Smith's scriptures would have followed up that sentence with something like, "Now therefore I shall smite them from the Earth!" Instead it's, "Now, therefore, I'm going to let them keep the only copy of those records and think about what they've done until they apologize." Yesterday was the Day of Wrath, today is Passive Aggression.

[_kairos]

I still can't understand how Bushman, a believer that Joseph Smith had god given plates, would think Joseph Smith 's way out of the situation was to go to a different set of plates rather than Joseph Smith using the same ones he used to get the 116 pages-why go to another set of plates unless you made up the 116 pages without any plates. Surely Bushman should try to explain(maybe he has) why the lehi plates could not be used to get the job done. Isn't it like me printing a copy of my term paper giving it to my prof, then prof says he inadvertently tossed it. no big deal - i just print another copy. now if the term paper was the one and only handwritten original i would start over with my notes/golden plates and come pretty close to the original paper.

why have not the mopologists tried to explain this?

help me out here1

k

[_Physics Guy]

I don't really know. I myself can't see any good explanation; to me this is a damning tell. But Doctrine and Covenants is also part of Mormon Scripture, modern revelations directly from God to the Prophet, so faithful Mormons may simply have their hands tied in this case. God commanded Smith not to retranslate the missing pages, for the reasons given in D&C 10. The apologists can't start explaining that what God said wasn't the real reason. The party line has been set and all they can do is follow it.

I mean, if you're willing admit that Smith wasn't just obeying the command of God given in D&C 10, because Smith himself just made up D&C 10, then there's hardly any reason left to justify Smith's behavior over the missing pages.