A Blast from the Past: "SeN" Takes on EV Critics

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_Doctor Scratch
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A Blast from the Past: "SeN" Takes on EV Critics

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Happy Sunday, Friends and Colleagues! On this day of reflection and reverence, I've been thinking: Do you remember how Dr. Peterson went ballistic a little over a month ago over the suggestion that he is sometimes unkind towards people of other religious dispositions? It would seem that he himself has already forgotten that episode, because just yesterday, he posted a thread called "An exceptionally stupid argument against the Restoration," and for anyone who is a student of Mopologetics, the whole entry will make you feel as if you've been transported back in time to the late 1990s. Just take a look at the second paragraph:
DCP wrote:There is some Catholic anti-Mormon activity; I picked up a little pamphlet attack the faith of the Latter-day Saints in the Colorado Rockies just a few weeks ago. In fact, I’ve even seen a Muslim anti-Mormon pamphlet. Still, it’s Protestants who are, by and large, the folks who set up “ministries,” publish newsletters, broadcast radio shows, travel on the lecture circuit, churn out pamphlets, teach divinity school classes, produce videos, hold public seminars, offer online courses, organize picket lines, air television shows, sponsor “mission trips,” author books, and run a myriad of websites aimed at criticizing Mormonism, and who, in a comparatively small but surprising number of cases, earn their livings by attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
LOL. It's weird: back in 1999, these exact same charges just seemed different. Today, though, you could look at that list of descriptions and you could legitimately wonder: Is this referring to EV ministries? Or to the exploits of the Mopologists? Book of Mormon Central; FAIRMormon; Interpreter; Neville-Neville Land. I mean, we can go through them one by one:

--"broadcast radio shows": yes, there is an 'Interpreter' radio show. And a number of Mopologetic podcasts.
--"travel on the lecture circuit": LOL. Oh, it's so abhorrent to do that! And yet I bet that the EV lecturers weren't getting their expenses covered by their official, centralized, and stunningly wealthy churches, were they?
--"churn out pamphlets": well, the Mopologists might win on this one. Has there ever been an EV ministry that has published an article every single week for like 500 weeks straight?
--"teach divinity school classes": How is this different from the religious ed classes at BYU?
--"produce videos": Uh, "Witnesses"?
--"hold public seminars": FAIR Mormon Conference?
--"offer online courses": Don't Interpreter, FAIRMormon, and the others offer "study resources"?
--"organize picket lines": What did Midgley do at the Whitesides vigil? Or at Sandra Tanner's bookstore? Or Gina Colvin's Husband's ward?
--"air television shows": Sorry, but the EVs win this battle.
--"sponsor 'mission trips'": Uh, Cruise Lady?
--"author books": well, hey: at least they manage to finish their books. And how often do their own churches yank their books off of church-sponsored shelves, like what happened with Gee?
--"run a myriad of websites": "Sic et Non"? "Neville-Neville Land"? "Forn Spoll Fira"?

You have to marvel at how far the Mopologists have come. They have spent so much of their time over the past 20 years battling secular critics, that they failed to notice that they've adopted all of the so-called "corrupt" practices of their old nemeses, the EV critics. At this point, their tactics are basically indistinguishable. And yet look at this remark, seemingly beamed straight out of SHIELDS from circa 1998:
DCP wrote:Thus, it’s not unexpected, given all their undertakings, that fundamentalist and evangelical Protestants have come up with most of the stupidest arguments against Mormon beliefs. (At some point, I’ll probably share an example or two of what I mean.)
Yeah: those EVs sure are "stupid," aren't they! Maybe if they believed in near-death experiences, or in the afterlife of Added Upon, or in seer stones, that would help? Regardless, this is clearly a cause for reminiscence, and Glen Danielson can't help but get into the spirit of the moment:
Gle Danielseon wrote:In the 1980’s, I had a close friend who worked for Ex-Mormons For Jesus. EMFJ actually had a storefront (!) in an obscure strip mall in Santa Fe Springs, CA, where my friend was a clerk. Unbelievable! Later I had to end the friendship because he couldn’t stop spewing sewage at me.

Recently I responded to an Evangelical YouTube boob who has made a hobby of trying to destroy our joy. Please forgive its length:

Evangelical brother, why not make a new standard, a whole new paradigm—one of respect and civil discourse. Polite is right. We Latter-day Saints have seen so much thought rot—the dominant pattern of Evangelicals attacking others’ Faiths. It is long-standing Evangelical spectacle. On the net and in their bookstores, we see landfills of anti-Latter-day Saint wordcraft. By contrast, visit any Latter-day Saint bookstore or website; you will not see a single anti-Evangelical book or piece of scrap paper, nor website or video. Evangelicals routinely use glib ridicule, smooth dishonest exposition, rant with slant, playground mockery, accusations that distort and omit context, half-truths, outright deceit, flat falsehoods, cherrypicked quotes from pioneer Church leaders’ personal opinions, and fragmented quotes and ellipses used to change meaning. They edit to discredit. They don’t want to convert, they want to hurt. They don’t want answers, they want to rapid-fire smear.

You see, misrepresenting someone else’s Faith is not “speaking the truth in love.” And being rude is not being ‘bold,’ it’s just being rude. You guys, if you have Christ then share Christ, not slander. In the eyes of God, lying about sacred things is a heavy matter. Propagandist brother Walter Martin and others have tried to justify spitting spite and sarcasm by using New Testament verses that mention “contend for the faith.” But reread those narratives; they don’t advocate assaulting others’ beliefs, but rather to contend *for* one’s Faith. Evangelical assassins, efforts at justifying inane behavior by proof-texting it in holy writ only makes hypocrisy more abhorrent. There is fault when you exalt assault. Misunderstanding Latter-day Saints is excusable; evil speaking is not.
We suggest James 3 for thee.

Cheers to you anyway, Evangelical jihadists with fourth-century view from the pew, of non-apostolic creed, of Nicene scream, of grace-only Lutherspeak. We disagree a wee, but I hope we can be friends with our pens and civil with our drivel. Instead of a beatdown, share Christ if you have Christ. You will never win anyone over by spitting on their cherished beliefs and using dishonest verbal gymnastics misrepresenting their history and teachings, using deceptive spins or sly lie. (I mean, do we really have to ask you not to lie?) To malign is a bad sign. Reflect on respect. Now go out and sniff seasonal air, but stay out of trouble. (I myself have trouble staying out of trouble).
Did he listen to "50 Ways to Leave Your Lover" before he wrote this? It doesn't matter, because it clearly was in keeping with the blog proprietor's intentions:
Daniel Peterson wrote:I once visited that very place in that very strip mall in Santa Fe Springs. With Todd Compton. (That name will mean something to some readers.). It was a very weird experience. Among other things, they gave us a private showing of The God Makers and then marveled that we didn't resign our Church membership immediately at its conclusion.

I agree with your letter -- though you have a talent for rap that I lack. I'm astonished at the vitriol that I've encountered over the years, first mostly from Evangelical anti-Mormons and now mostly from secular anti-theists.
Wow, I don't even know where to begin. First, it seems clear that the "Witnesses" movie is meant to function in a similar way--rhetorically speaking--as The Godmakers. "Witnesses," I think it's fair to say, is meant to be the Mopologists' version of The Godmakers--a propaganda piece that is meant drive home the apologists' agenda. Second: "you have a talent for rap"...? WTF? What rap is DCP listening to? Good lord: talk about clueless.

In any case, Danielson makes an effort to bring the conversation back to his real interests:
Glen Danielson wrote:Yes, but I think most damaging now is the subtle corrosion of Church culture by secularists in the perimeter of the Church. That, I think, is our greatest scare at present. In recent days they have proved that they have the power to get a good, faithful book banned. Unprecedented. It is sickening to me.
I think that the Mopologists cycle through the various people that they perceive as threats. They go through periods where it's mainly the Heartlanders that they view as enemies. Sometimes it's the Mormon Transhumanists; sometimes it is LGBTQ+ people or people of color; most of the time it is atheists. But now we've circled back to their original nemeses: the EVs. The common thread here is that the Mopologists need people to hate (and notice that Dr. Peterson says that he "visited that very place"--meaning that he went out of his way to trek down to Santa Fe Springs). But, of course, they've accumulated so many enemies over the years that it gets tough to fight all of them, hence why there are sometimes efforts to make amends. But these are always--and have always been--disingenuous, and they seldom ever happen. (Imagine seeing some kind of outreach effort to the Heartlanders, who are actually fellow Latter-day Saints!) Instead, at the end of the day, they find it easier (or more entertaining?) to keep picking the same old fights.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Jersey Girl
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Re: A Blast from the Past: "SeN" Takes on EV Critics

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Listen I didn't read your whole post yet. Question. Didn't Joseph Smith Jr. establish an entire religion based on criticism of the Protestant all churches?

None of them were true, right?

So what skin is it off his nose, if other churches criticize the church he belongs to?

What. Did I just fall through the Looking Glass here or has he?

Daniel you make an ass of yourself. Shut up.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_I have a question
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Re: A Blast from the Past: "SeN" Takes on EV Critics

Post by _I have a question »

DCP wrote:There is some Catholic anti-Mormon activity; I picked up a little pamphlet attack the faith of the Latter-day Saints in the Colorado Rockies just a few weeks ago.
“...when I was chastising others for not taking Covid-19 seriously.”
_Kishkumen
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Re: A Blast from the Past: "SeN" Takes on EV Critics

Post by _Kishkumen »

Doctor, isn't Glen Danielson one of the DezNazis?
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Analytics
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Re: A Blast from the Past: "SeN" Takes on EV Critics

Post by _Analytics »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:47 am
...they failed to notice that they've adopted all of the so-called "corrupt" practices of their old nemeses, the EV critics. At this point, their tactics are basically indistinguishable.
A notable example is their reaction to Christopher Hitchens and his book god Is Not Great. They have attacked and continue to attack this book and have done so across all mediums--conferences, journal articles, a book, dozens of blog entries. Surely they've talked about it on their radio show. What is interesting about this example is how acutely awful their criticisms are--it's as if they literally did not read it and are basing their criticisms on what they presume it says. My best guess is that their emotional reaction to the book was so intense it literally short-circuited their ability to intellectually understand and remember the book's actual arguments.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
_Philo Sofee
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Re: A Blast from the Past: "SeN" Takes on EV Critics

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Analytics wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:51 pm
Doctor Scratch wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:47 am
...they failed to notice that they've adopted all of the so-called "corrupt" practices of their old nemeses, the EV critics. At this point, their tactics are basically indistinguishable.
A notable example is their reaction to Christopher Hitchens and his book god Is Not Great. They have attacked and continue to attack this book and have done so across all mediums--conferences, journal articles, a book, dozens of blog entries. Surely they've talked about it on their radio show. What is interesting about this example is how acutely awful their criticisms are--it's as if they literally did not read it and are basing their criticisms on what they presume it says. My best guess is that their emotional reaction to the book was so intense it literally short-circuited their ability to intellectually understand and remember the book's actual arguments.
All they have to know is that it is from an atheist, and a mighty powerfully popular one to send them into kaniptions of rage, all without grasping what it is he says because to even touch it, let alone read it will grieve the sensitive Holy Ghost, and they will never be able to find their car keys, and they just can't have that.

Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_Gadianton
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Re: A Blast from the Past: "SeN" Takes on EV Critics

Post by _Gadianton »

"they have attacked and continue to attack this book and have done so across all mediums--conferences, journal articles, a book, dozens of blog entries. Surely they've talked about it on their radio show."

Good point, but I thought you were going to say, after launching their war against Hitchens, who I believe barely noticed Mormons, they virtually forced Gemli to register and post there. How many times as Lou whined that SeN is the sacred living room that Gemli has interrupted?

And even so, they complain constantly that Gemli won't study Mormon specific claims. Were he to do so he'd be a full-blooded anti-Mormon, virtually of their own making.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
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Re: A Blast from the Past: "SeN" Takes on EV Critics

Post by _Gadianton »

Kishkumen wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:39 pm
Doctor, isn't Glen Danielson one of the DezNazis?
He posts in interpreter comments as an ally to Dennis Horne. Isn't DezNat a younger crowd? Would be interesting if he was.

I have to say, when he called for blood bath of excommunications, a "September 660", the Proprietor shot him down, and Danielson complied immediately. Shows just how much standing the Proprietor has among defenders of the Church. Imagine if he'd used his powers for good like this consistently throughout his career, instead of doing the opposite, and empowering the extremism of his acolytes? Maybe it would be a totally different legacy today.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: A Blast from the Past: "SeN" Takes on EV Critics

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

I have a question wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:56 am
DCP wrote:There is some Catholic anti-Mormon activity; I picked up a little pamphlet attack the faith of the Latter-day Saints in the Colorado Rockies just a few weeks ago.
“...when I was chastising others for not taking Covid-19 seriously.”
I bet he's making this up. If he has an actual pamphlet, then let him post images of it and explain where/how he got it, etc. He won't do it: this is complete mythology. Then again, let him prove me wrong and I'll apologize for assuming that he was lying.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: A Blast from the Past: "SeN" Takes on EV Critics

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Analytics wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:51 pm
Doctor Scratch wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:47 am
...they failed to notice that they've adopted all of the so-called "corrupt" practices of their old nemeses, the EV critics. At this point, their tactics are basically indistinguishable.
A notable example is their reaction to Christopher Hitchens and his book god Is Not Great. They have attacked and continue to attack this book and have done so across all mediums--conferences, journal articles, a book, dozens of blog entries. Surely they've talked about it on their radio show. What is interesting about this example is how acutely awful their criticisms are--it's as if they literally did not read it and are basing their criticisms on what they presume it says. My best guess is that their emotional reaction to the book was so intense it literally short-circuited their ability to intellectually understand and remember the book's actual arguments.
That's a great point, Analytics. There are people/groups that they will latch onto as enemies, and Hitchens is clearly one of the ones who irks them the most. To tell you the truth, though, I think Dr. Peterson hates Hitchens so much because he (DCP) is jealous of Hitchens's status as a "public intellectual." Hitchens was popular, sold millions of books, and was frequently invited as a guest on to TV programs. DCP, meanwhile, has had to slave just in order to drum up a measly $1 million for his "Witnesses" movie, and how many hits does "SeN" get per day? Someone looked it up once, as I recall, and the results weren't exactly flattering.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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