Kerry Muhlestein Does Video Response to Robert Ritner

[_Dr Moore]

I think it only discredits Gee and Muhelstein to parrot this ridiculous idea that Joseph got anything “right”, much less an incredibly unlikely amount of things “right.”

So much is wrong that the only notable “odds metric” supported by the data is that Joseph might be the unluckiest seer/prophet in all of religious history.

[_Dr Exiled]

I'd like to see what Dan Vogel said that was subsequently deleted. Anyone copy his comment? Dan, could you perhaps comment over here?

[_Shulem]

I'd like to see what Dan Vogel said that was subsequently deleted. Anyone copy his comment? Dan, could you perhaps comment over here?

I read his comment and thought it was concise and respectful. I have to think that the reason his comment was deleted is because it linked to his Book of Abraham videos which don't necessarily paint a positive light on Smith's ability to translate Egyptian -- exposing him for being a charlatan in showing how he mishandled the papyrus and pretending to be able to translate through divine means.

Vogel tears faith down while Muhlestein builds it (shame on you, Vogel). Do you see the difference? Faith is the first principle of the Mormon gospel and everything that opposes it be damned.

I've said all along that faith in Mormonism is very dangerous. Mormonism is a cult. It's a wicked system of religion that binds and ties the hearts and minds in order to pay tithes and pledge ABSOLUTE devotion to it's evil craft even if you have to slit your own throat doing it.

[_Gadianton]

Everybody Wang Chung: "This isn't scholarship, this is confirmation bias."

That's absolutely right. Just because " all scholars approach any topic with their own sets of existing beliefs" doesn't mean all scholars have created an explicit paradigm out of their biases, worship their biases as if they're sacred, and then go on to support the paradigm they created with their research, never leaving open the possibility that they could ever be wrong.

[_Philo Sofee]

I think it only discredits Gee and Muhelstein to parrot this ridiculous idea that Joseph got anything “right”, much less an incredibly unlikely amount of things “right.”

So much is wrong that the only notable “odds metric” supported by the data is that Joseph might be the unluckiest seer/prophet in all of religious history.

I think you are onto something here. They will never discuss here and which "translations" Joseph Smith got wrong. They are always leaving the impression that there is literally nothing amiss at all in anything with the facsimiles and papyri.......it's too ludicrously biased to believe. It's lost any semblence of realism. They want to make Smith infallible. Their problem now is their own ludicrousness in this bias.

[_Dr Exiled]

Some say the book of abraham is a smoking gun or the smoking gun against Mormonism. I personally think it is a cumulative case. But the failures of book of abraham apologetics sure give Book of Abraham as the smoking gun a place near the front of the table.

[_aussieguy55]

Dan Petersen has chimed in about he Muhlestein video claiming that all is well with Kerry and the authorities in Egypt.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... raham.html

[_moksha]

"Most people believe Abraham was a real person", referring to a couple of billion Muslims, Christians, and a smattering of Jews. Kerry Muhlestein says he takes comfort in that since he (Kerry) is a real person and thus can relate to a real person in Abraham. Pretty sure most Mormons and Muslims would find Abraham to be more real than Confucius. However, what if that same group was asked if the Book of Mormon was real? Pretty sure Kerry would argue in that circumstance that it does not matter what the majority believes.

[_Shulem]

Muhlestein is attempting to appeal to listeners by finding a common ground in which believers across the board believe in a literal Abraham -- so look at us, the FAITHFUL and we are righteous while those apostates who discredit the Book of Abraham are wicked. Kerry will use what he thinks is the majority to suit his purposes. But is it really the majority in this case? Considering the billions of Chinese and Hindus who put no stock in Abraham it might just be that the numbers are actually more even for and against.

Finding comfort in the majority when it comes to faith is a baby's blanket to comfort their child-like faith. Heck, how many children around the world have faith that Santa is a real person? Faith in something not true doesn't make it real. Abraham in the Book of Abraham is a matter of faith but has been shown to be false. Everything about Smith's Book of Abraham has been shown to be wrong. Only the gullible are falling for it. The world outside of Mormonism will NEVER fall for the Book of Abraham. It is a poor selling point coming from the Church and they need to just get rid of it. Nobody outside the Church will ever believe the nonsense in the Book of Abraham.

[_Dr Exiled]

The more I think about it, the more I think the apologists should leave the historicity field as the war is lost. They and the church should retreat to focusing on spiritual conversion and don't battle any more on whether or not the Book of Mormon was translated into Early Modern English or whether or not the Book of Abraham is a legitimate translation of something. It'll be less embarrassing when caught making silly responses that cannot stand up to scrutiny, like LGT, etc. and will allow less of a bunker mentality for the apologists. It'll allow Kiwi57 to finally give up on calling everyone who disagrees with him a bigot. Frankly, the apologists' job will no longer be necessary and Mormons everywhere won't be forced to embarrass themselves either in supporting the unsupportable. They can simply respond as senor dodo did to the BBC reporter when he said that he didn't know egyptian but believed the Book of Abraham was the word of God regardless.

Maybe the new slogan can be F____ History, The Church is True!