Death of Tom Kimball

[_Doctor Scratch]

We'll see. Our Tom may post before I even finish typing this and settle the question.

I hope I'm proven wrong, Reverend.

Also, I see that Dr. Peterson has also now entered the Mopologetic game:

I noted, a couple of days ago, the suicide of Tom Kimball, who was a rather significant figure in some ex-Mormon circles. Tom could apparently be quite warm to some. To me, he was not. He was angry and contemptuous and unfair. I didn’t know him at all well, but our interactions were, to the best of my recollection, invariably unpleasant. It now turns out that he was also a serial sexual abuser, seemingly over four decades. His friends and admirers are understandably stunned. So am I, I guess. (I certainly didn’t expect it.) What astonishes me now, though, is that several of them have begun, to at least some degree, to blame the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for making him the manipulative predator that he apparently was. Please recall that these are people who, until just a couple of days ago, didn’t even know that Tom Kimball was a sexual abuser. Now, though, they’re surprisingly confident that the Church bears some degree of responsibility for his actions. Even to an experienced eye like mine, that’s astonishing.

So, do we want to get into the substance abuse issues that were present in the Hamblin family? How about that, Dan? Let's get into it. Let's explain why the Church couldn't help Bill and his family. If you want to go wading around in the muck, then bring it on.

[_Dr Exiled]

Back in the 70's there were a bunch of incidences with pedophiles at the Deseret Gym. Parents used to let their kids run around the place unsupervised and predators loved it when prey was unattended. A couple of friends whose grandfathers were GA's were victims of some of these evil assholes. I luckily wasn't. Afterward, we were counseled to not say anything by our stake president, for the good of the church of course. The church was on top of it and would take care of it we were told.

Also, I hope our Tom isn't Tom Kimball.

[Guest]

I noted, a couple of days ago, the suicide of Tom Kimball, who was a rather significant figure in some ex-Mormon circles. Tom could apparently be quite warm to some. To me, he was not. He was angry and contemptuous and unfair. I didn’t know him at all well, but our interactions were, to the best of my recollection, invariably unpleasant. It now turns out that he was also a serial sexual abuser, seemingly over four decades. His friends and admirers are understandably stunned. So am I, I guess. (I certainly didn’t expect it.) What astonishes me now, though, is that several of them have begun, to at least some degree, to blame the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for making him the manipulative predator that he apparently was. Please recall that these are people who, until just a couple of days ago, didn’t even know that Tom Kimball was a sexual abuser. Now, though, they’re surprisingly confident that the Church bears some degree of responsibility for his actions. Even to an experienced eye like mine, that’s astonishing.

I did not say that the Church actively, consciously, and deliberately made Tom a predatory pedophile. It is not the case that I believe the presidents of the LDS Church decreed through revelation from the Lord that Tom was commanded or created to be a pedophile. I trust this is not about my comments because I firmly do not believe that the LDS Church is directly responsible for making Tom a predatory pedophile.

I do believe that the flaws in the structure and practices (policies, if you will) of the Church inadvertently facilitate the activities of predatory pedophiles, such that the predatory pedophiles who are thereby able to perpetrate their crimes unchecked within the LDS Church create more predatory pedophiles through their abusive behaviors.

[_Kishkumen]

What astonishes me is that at this time in history, knowing what we know of all of the predatory pedophiles who have abused children in the context of their LDS membership, anyone would not say that there is a problem in the way the Church has responded to the situation. They have done precious little. And the sad thing is that it would take very little to make the numbers drop precipitously. All that needs to happen is an end to interviewing kids. Full stop.

That's it.

That's all that is necessary.

If you want worthiness interviews to take place, make the parents responsible for them. Full stop.

That's it.

That's all that is necessary.

Why can't that happen? What prevents the Church from doing this? I would really like to know. I am open to hearing out anyone who actually knows something about this and is willing to fill me in.

But I don't want BS excuses. I don't want personal opinions. We have seen the victims. We have seen the many news stories about the bishops and other leaders who committed these crimes. We know one or two ways we could really cut down on their opportunities for gaining access to kids.

The second way: stop assigning men to lead activities involving minors.

Statistically, there are far fewer women who commit such crimes. Don't put men in charge of children's activities.

Don't do it. Period.

But the Church won't do these things. And I have no idea why. Please, do let me know. I am all ears.

[Guest]

Also, I see that Dr. Peterson has also now entered the Mopologetic game:



So, do we want to get into the substance abuse issues that were present in the Hamblin family? How about that, Dan? Let's get into it. Let's explain why the Church couldn't help Bill and his family. If you want to go wading around in the muck, then bring it on.

DCP's comments are pure, unadulterated manure. Really infuriating. I am past tired of such deliberately disingenuous offal.

No, Dan, I did not say that the Church actively, consciously, and deliberately made Tom a predatory pedophile. It is not the case that I believe the presidents of the LDS Church decreed through revelation from the Lord that Tom was commanded or created to be a pedophile. Knock off the stupid ____.

I said that the flaws in the structure and practices (policies, if you will) of the Church inadvertently facilitate the activities of predatory pedophiles, such that the predatory pedophiles who are thereby able to perpetrate their crimes unchecked within the LDS Church create more predatory pedophiles through their abusive behaviors.

In criticizing the flaws in the organization (and there are flaws), Dan, I did not come after you personally, and I find your rude way of misrepresenting what I said to be a low blow and unworthy of you.

DCP's comments are more of the defend at all costs attitude that he and his cheerleading buddies always have. I don't think it is possible for him to objectively look at the church. The leaders are supposedly fallible yet he cannot point to any mistakes these ordinary men make, including their continued push to cover up any and every child sexual crime their local leaders may commit from time to time.

Just look at the truth and transparency foundation's leak in Jan, 2020 showing how the failure to report abuse led to more abuse: https://www.truthandtransparency.org/ne ... al-victim/

Here is one where the local leaders failed to report the manufacture of child pornography:
https://www.truthandtransparency.org/ne ... onfession/

How about this one DCP?
https://www.thedailybeast.com/Mormon-ch ... ine-report

It has to stop Dr. P.

Also, perhaps this cover up attitude leads to more abuse? When the penalties aren't as severe as they perhaps should be, usually, that leads to more bad conduct. We know, Dr. P, that you are unable to admit that perhaps your precious church isn't as super-duper as you want to portray. You may not want to entertain fallibility, but we do. Feel free to obstain.

[_Kishkumen]

Of course, we know it won't stop completely. No one believes it will. No one actually thinks predatory pedophilia ends if the Church closes the valve on things that give predatory pedophiles access to children.

But how much harder it would be for them to get access. Far fewer acts would be perpetrated, and those that were the LDS Church would be much less culpable for, if it were culpable at all. But, let's be clear: at present the LDS Church is culpable for not doing everything it can to stop predatory pedophiles from gaining access to children.

If they are doing everything they can, then I am open to being persuaded that this is the case. Persuade me. If we can sit here and think of easy things the Church *could do* to stop predators in their tracks, and yet the Church does not do them, why should we not think that they are derelict in their responsibility for the safety of LDS children?

The Church, its leaders, and its self-appointed apologists ought to be able to explain to others why the situation is as it is. We who have family and friends in this organization want to know.

As more and more acts of predatory pedophilia in the Mormon community (and ex-Mormons are, after all, Mormons) come to light, it understandably raises questions. We all know about bishops and other priesthood leaders who have misused their callings to abuse kids. Now that we know this, we have to consider the possibility that the Church's practices and policies leave the door open too wide to allow these predators to perpetrate their crimes. Tell us how that is not so! Go ahead!

I can tell you right now that I have had the conversation with my spouse about whether we would allow our kids to attend the LDS Church.

This happened.

We decided that its policies were too unsafe for kids, and that these policies remained unsafe even after it gestured at addressing the problem. Yes, I would not let my kids join the LDS Church and submit them to personal priesthood interviews.

NEVER.

I told them if they wanted to join the LDS Church, they had to wait until they were 18. And this problem was the decisive factor.

[_Tom]

I can confirm that I was not Tom Kimball. I also did not know, nor did I have any type of relationship with, him. I knew nothing about his personal history. As a secondary subject of this thread, I will note that an active member of this board asked me 12 years ago via PM here if I was Tom Kimball, and I said no. I had no clue at the time or in the intervening years that the issue would very publicly re-emerge here in 2020.

To end additional speculation, I will say that I’m also not Tom (the piper’s son), Tom Alexander, Tom Araya, Tom Arnold, Tom Bosley, Tom Brady, Tom Brokaw, Tommy Chong, Tom Cruise, Tom Ford, Tom Green, Tom Hanks, Tom Hardy, Tommy Lee, Tommy Lee Jones, Tom Morello, Tom Murphy, Tom Selleck, Tom Thumb, or Tom Waits.

I’ve likely said too much. I need to return to writing my forthcoming three-volume biography of Louis Midgley, tentatively titled Junkyard Dog of Mopologetics.

[_Kishkumen]

To move the conversation in another direction, this is proving to be a time of soul-searching, reflection, and renewed commitment in the Mormon Studies Community. The question of why so many people did not know there was a problem when clearly some people did know is now being raised. People are also struggling to sort out their memories of Tom as they knew him, which is as he wanted to be known, not as who he actually was. The point is being made that Tom was, whatever else he wanted to portray himself as, a rapist and predatory pedophile.

If ever you know someone who has committed such crimes, you need to warn others. Don't let them find out by being victimized themselves.

There were people out there who knew Tom was a problem. They did not speak out. They did not warn women and girls to stay away from Tom, and Tom was able to victimize many more people because of it.

On the other hand, to their credit, some did warn others. Let's not just focus on the failures. Some people acted responsibly and warned their friends and acquaintances that Tom was not safe. They did the right thing.

According to my understanding, the ones who did the right thing were more often than not women. The ones who have done a poorer job of acknowledging the problem and warning others have been men.

[_Kishkumen]

I can confirm that I was not Tom Kimball. I also did not know, nor did I have any type of relationship with, him. I knew nothing about his personal history. As a secondary subject of this thread, I will note that an active member of this board asked me 12 years ago via PM here if I was Tom Kimball, and I said no. I had no clue at the time or in the intervening years that the issue would very publicly re-emerge here in 2020.

To end additional speculation, I will say that I’m also not Tom (the piper’s son), Tom Alexander, Tom Araya, Tom Arnold, Tom Bosley, Tom Brady, Tom Brokaw, Tommy Chong, Tom Cruise, Tom Ford, Tom Green, Tom Hanks, Tom Hardy, Tommy Lee, Tommy Lee Jones, Tom Morello, Tom Murphy, Tom Selleck, Tom Thumb, or Tom Waits.

I’ve likely said too much. I need to return to writing my forthcoming three-volume biography of Louis Midgley, tentatively titled Junkyard Dog of Mopologetics.

Thanks for speaking up, Tom. I had my reasons to doubt you were Tom Kimball. Maybe I was the person who asked so many years ago. LOL. It would be just like me to forget. In any case, this is a huge relief. For one thing, we will still benefit from your contributions to the board. The other sources of relief in this regard are pretty self-explanatory.

[_Tom]

It wasn’t you who asked.

I should add that I’m not Tom Wayment. I don’t know Greek and I am not an academic of any sort.