Why Do Biblical Christians Think God Doesn't Inspire the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

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Rivendale
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Re: Why Do Biblical Christians Think God Doesn't Inspire the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Post by Rivendale »

msnobody wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:49 am
What if God uses persons such as myself as His bullhorn to make known His plan to reconcile mankind to Himself? As a believer of the biblical gospel, I am tasked to represent and make Him known on earth. I come here day after day proclaiming Jesus’ as the propitiation for our sin, his life, death, burial, and resurrection, I urge people to surrender their lives to God, yet day after day, the the message of God’s good news is often rejected or pushed aside. What more do you want from Him? He gave a book that tells us what we need to know in order to know Him personally. He sent His redeemed ones to tell of the good news. He tore the veil at Jesus’ crucifixion so we may have direct access to Him.

And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, Acts 17:25-27

God is a free gift to be received. He is the only wise one. Yet, we seek wisdom from everywhere except Him.

I’ve got to leave for work. Seek and find Him, friends. He isn’t far from each of us.
What if God uses persons such as myself as His bullhorn to make known His plan to reconcile mankind to Himself?

The important part of that phrase is "what if". That is the problem. God would be depending on an intermediary that is flawed. That is a net negative in the successful conversion of another person.

I come here day after day proclaiming Jesus’ as the propitiation for our sin, his life, death, burial, and resurrection
This has bothered me for a long time also. If a God resorts to this kind of tactic it really leaves me wondering why death, torture and blood is the best plan. I can think of better plans.
What more do you want from Him?


I don't want anything. If he exists he is responsible for me being who I am. He planted me in a soil that grew me into an Atheist. I had no say in my genetic disposition nor the environment I grew up in that fostered critical thinking and evidence when justifying beliefs. Every god that has been described to me has logical inconsistencies that do not map onto my view of reality. Justified true belief for me must reflect reality. Angels, rising from the dead, words appearing on rocks, prophecies have never been verified.
He gave a book that tells us what we need to know in order to know Him personally.
You don't know he gave us a book. We have a book that is all.
and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him
Emotions are not a valid way to find true things.
msnobody
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Re: Why Do Biblical Christians Think God Doesn't Inspire the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Post by msnobody »

Emotions are not a valid way to find true things.
I’m pretty sure He isn’t talking about emotions or feelings here.

If He has purposed for you all to be grafted into the family of God, He will be successful.
The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession... The LORD set his love on you and chose you... The LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery. Deut. 7
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Why Do Biblical Christians Think God Doesn't Inspire the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

msnobody wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:32 am
Emotions are not a valid way to find true things.
I’m pretty sure He isn’t talking about emotions or feelings here.

If He has purposed for you all to be grafted into the family of God, He will be successful.
You sound like a cult member. Like, your language and your obstinate refusal to even acknowledge your god’s nature described by your Bible is, at a fundamental level, unhinged. I’m not calling you crazy, but you have all the indicators of being brainwashed. What church do you attend? I want to see if it’s considered a cult.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: Why Do Biblical Christians Think God Doesn't Inspire the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Post by msnobody »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:51 am
msnobody wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:32 am

I’m pretty sure He isn’t talking about emotions or feelings here.

If He has purposed for you all to be grafted into the family of God, He will be successful.
You sound like a cult member. Like, your language and your obstinate refusal to even acknowledge your god’s nature described by your Bible is, at a fundamental level, unhinged. I’m not calling you crazy, but you have all the indicators of being brainwashed. What church do you attend? I want to see if it’s considered a cult.

- Doc
Check it out and let me know what your thoughts are, Doc.

Presbyterian Church in America

https://pcanet.org/

I’m willing to drill down to the local church if you’d like. In fact, if you’d like to listen to a sermon or two, we’re doing Romans right now. The preaching/ teaching starts at about 40 minutes in, If I recall correctly.
https://christcommunity.net/
The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession... The LORD set his love on you and chose you... The LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery. Deut. 7
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Why Do Biblical Christians Think God Doesn't Inspire the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Well. I spent a good amount of time last night and this morning digging into the PCUSA and the PCA, to include various CCCs. What was I supposed to see that would disabuse me of the notion that a CCC member doesn’t exhibit cult-like tendencies? While not like the Mormon church, JWs, or Scientology, these churches are subject to the same kinds of psychological discriminators and people that creates an Us vs Them mentality. Your church, and I can admit without guile it’s more like a caffeine-free diet Coke cult vs Mormonism’s full-on Classic Coke cult, still has the problem inherent in balancing Biblical literalism vs cherry picking. And it most definitely doesn’t change the nature of your god as described by the Bible. Your god, no matter how nicely you want to interpret, say, Romans (I watched the sermon covering homosexuality last night) still doesn’t change his atrocious behavior both past and presumably what’s coming down the line for the world to include the hereafter.

So. Here we are. Can you admit your god is a god of blood and vengeance?

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
msnobody
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Re: Why Do Biblical Christians Think God Doesn't Inspire the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Post by msnobody »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:01 pm
Well. I spent a good amount of time last night and this morning digging into the PCUSA and the PCA, to include various CCCs. What was I supposed to see that would disabuse me of the notion that a CCC member doesn’t exhibit cult-like tendencies? While not like the Mormon church, JWs, or Scientology, these churches are subject to the same kinds of psychological discriminators and people that creates an Us vs Them mentality. Your church, and I can admit without guile it’s more like a caffeine-free diet Coke cult vs Mormonism’s full-on Classic Coke cult, still has the problem inherent in balancing Biblical literalism vs cherry picking. And it most definitely doesn’t change the nature of your god as described by the Bible. Your god, no matter how nicely you want to interpret, say, Romans (I watched the sermon covering homosexuality last night) still doesn’t change his atrocious behavior both past and presumably what’s coming down the line for the world to include the hereafter.

So. Here we are. Can you admit your god is a god of blood and vengeance?

- Doc
CCC is not a denomination of churches. It is just a name of a single local church, with no affiliation with other CCC churches, except perhaps part of the universal church.

I see it as more of an “us” mentality in contrast to an “us vs. them” mentality. We’ve all sinned, every single one of us.

I rewatched the God Gave Them Over Romans 1:24-32 sermon. Is that the one you watched?

As Paul says, “As such were some of you.” Those passages can apply to all of us. God allows us to go our own way and desires none to perish. I think David mentioned that God allowing us to go our own way could be a merciful thing that leads us to a place where we come to realize our need of God. I’d have to go back and watch it again to quote him exactly.
Can you admit your god is a god of blood and vengeance?
He is a God of mercy. He took upon Himself the due penalty for our sins. He created us and gave us free will. We rebel against God. In His mercy He came to seek and to save the lost. He loves us so much that He took upon Himself the wrath for our sins.

In the post of mine that prompted this recent exchange between the two of us, I had God’s sovereignty in mind. He can take a person who is fighting him tooth and nail, and throw some of his irresistible grace on that person and change their heart.

Thank you taking the time to research the PCA and to listen to one of the sermons.

The August 28th sermon has been my favorite thus far. Perhaps because it met me right where I was at the time.
The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession... The LORD set his love on you and chose you... The LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery. Deut. 7
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Why Do Biblical Christians Think God Doesn't Inspire the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

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Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: Why Do Biblical Christians Think God Doesn't Inspire the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Post by Rivendale »

msnobody wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:32 am
Emotions are not a valid way to find true things.
I’m pretty sure He isn’t talking about emotions or feelings here.

If He has purposed for you all to be grafted into the family of God, He will be successful.
This seems to say that he purposely creates children that will not be grafted.
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Re: Why Do Biblical Christians Think God Doesn't Inspire the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Rivendale wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 2:52 pm
msnobody wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:32 am

I’m pretty sure He isn’t talking about emotions or feelings here.

If He has purposed for you all to be grafted into the family of God, He will be successful.
This seems to say that he purposely creates children that will not be grafted.
that's actually biblical. There are various verses that talk about their god creating evil people in the womb, or something akin to that. For example, from Psalms:
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: Why Do Biblical Christians Think God Doesn't Inspire the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Post by JohnW »

IHAQ wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:42 am
JohnW wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:59 am
Lots of good discussion in the last few pages here. Yes, Rivendale, that is something that bothered me for a long time as well. I think I sort of felt more comfortable with it when I asked myself what was the point of this life. I don't think it is an easy question to answer, but Latter-day Saints generally don't believe we are here to find out the right answer to the God question. We don't "win" life when we know which understanding of God is the correct one. We "win" life when we become a good, decent person. That can be done in all sorts of religion or irreligion. I think that is why personal revelation is individualized, because the change a person needs to make to become a better person is individual. With this framework in mind, if God is trying to get us to become good people, regardless of our beliefs, then I get the sense that if God were to come down and speak to us with a bullhorn, he would have to speak to each of us individually with a bullhorn, which sort of defeats the purpose of the bullhorn.
I think you have that completely wrong John. It's certainly not the doctrine/belief of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Here is how Oaks articulated the Church's position on winning/losing in this life:
...salvation is granted in different kingdoms of glory. We know from modern revelation that “all kingdoms have a law given.”12 Significantly:

“He who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

“And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

“And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory.”13

In other words, the kingdom of glory we receive in the Final Judgment is determined by the laws we choose to abide by in our Heavenly Father’s loving plan. Under that plan there are multiple kingdoms so that all of His children can be assigned to a kingdom where they can “abide.”
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

How can an individual from a different religion, or no religion, achieve a place in the Latter-day Saints Celestial Kingdom?
I assume you are familiar with the practice of baptism in behalf of the dead (I'm not trying to be patronizing, I'm just not sure how familiar you are with particular church doctrines). At risk of oversimplifying, let me explain a little more. To make it to the Celestial Kingdom, we need to become like God. That is what Pres. Oaks is talking about. Well, God is someone who lives forever and acts a certain way. For reasons that I won't explain here, God has required baptism by proper authority to enter the Celestial Kingdom. For me, that was the easy part. I was baptized when I was eight. The hard part is acting more like God. I am so far off that it will take a lifetime and an infinite amount of help (i.e. the atonement) to achieve. For people who do not have access to the proper authority, they can, and do, spend their entire life trying to become the best person they know how (i.e. more like God). All it will take is baptism and the other ordinances (i.e. full access to the atonement). God has made sure everyone has access to this path in one way or another. Maybe you remember the first scripture mastery everyone seems to have memorized, maybe because it was first on the list: ... I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them. (Ok, I admit I had to peek to get the wording right, but I got close). I didn't realize until adulthood that this scripture was also talking about baptism for the dead in a round-a-bout way. God made sure everyone can make it back. Yes, we all need the atonement of Jesus Christ, and most people will also need ordinances done for them.

Many people outside the church don't understand the concept of baptism in behalf of the dead. I still remember my middle school teacher who told the class a Mainstream Christian joke about the Mormons. The punchline was that up in heaven all the Mainstream Christians were supposed to be quiet because the Mormons thought they were the only ones up there. I didn't laugh, not because I was offended, but because I simply had no understanding of what he was talking about. From the time of middle school I already understood that the vast majority of people up in heaven would be people who weren't Latter-day Saints in life. That is probably because I had already done baptisms in the temple a few times.

Long story short, yes, there is a path that people from different religions or no religion will take to get to heaven. In fact, most members understand that there will be so many people in heaven that were non-members in life that coming across someone who was a member in life will be an odd occurrence. Caveat: when I mention this fact to members, it isn't always obvious to them, meaning, I sometimes have to talk about numbers for them to get a handle on the fact. And this is even before accounting for children who die before the age of eight. That is a topic for another thread.

An even longer story short: I fully expect many of you on this board to be up in heaven with me (hopefully I make it). This is because I know many of you are spending your life trying to become a good, decent person. In that way, we are in the same boat, despite our apparent difference of belief.
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