DiscussMormonism.com

Rivendale wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:58 pm

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 13, 2022 1:13 am

for peoples sake, for their intellectual personal spiritual growth toward maturity . Leaving behind childish imitation of caring to enter real experience (perhaps we misunderstanding each other?)

If the most important reason for being here is to learn how to return back I would question using this method. The reason? Because this method is indistinguishable from human emotions. Emotions that are created and impacted by genetics, nature and the nurture of the family one grows up in.

Rivendale, I find this idea of the reason for life quite alien. Taking a moment to try to remember my Mormon upbringing I am pretty sure I remember being taught that the importance of learning and growing and becoming something more of a person was primary. Is that being back seated by correlation? I can't believe it would be entirely.

I am much inclined to doubt a preexistence. I think our personhood is something that we are in the process of growing and creating now. It includes the critical components of genetics, nature and the nurture of ones family. It includes the culture and community in which we live. Those are fundamental to who we really are. They would not be like temporary clothing. Our growth into real people includes our own choices work and understanding but none of us exist alone.

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 13, 2022 1:13 am

Rivendale wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 13, 2022 12:37 am

Why would god need alternatives?

for peoples sake, for their intellectual personal spiritual growth toward maturity . Leaving behind childish imitation of caring to enter real experience (perhaps we misunderstanding each other?)

wut

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:03 pm

malkie wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 13, 2022 2:01 am

If we are talking about the god of Christianity, is there evidence that anything works/worked better than the big bullhorn?

With the bullhorn, we are told that 1/3 of the host of heaven turned away, or 2/3 accepted god's plan. Without it, what fraction of the world population has failed to accept god's message? More or less than 1/3?

https://www.statista.com/chart/25572/wo ... over-time/


Looks like Christianity may peak at 32% around 2060. If so, the alternative to the bullhorn looks a bit weak.

Malkie, if Gods interest is limited to the Christian political party then the internal knowledge and experience I suggested would not be very relevant. We could perhaps skip the whole human project.

You completely lost me there, huck!

Why do you think that I (and statistica.com) are talking about a political party? And what do you mean by "human project".

I was responding to your suggestion that the bullhorn was less effective than messages transmitted directly from god to individual humans.

Statistically it seems like the bullhorn was much more effective - no politics, and no "project" involved.

malkie wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:28 am

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:03 pm

Malkie, if Gods interest is limited to the Christian political party then the internal knowledge and experience I suggested would not be very relevant. We could perhaps skip the whole human project.

You completely lost me there, huck!

Why do you think that I (and statistica.com) are talking about a political party? And what do you mean by "human project".

I was responding to your suggestion that the bullhorn was less effective than messages transmitted directly from god to individual humans.

Statistically it seems like the bullhorn was much more effective - no politics, and no "project" involved.

Malkie, like a lot of good questions yours is not really easy. Well an easy take is see it as evidence that there is no god or Christian god. After all if the Christian point is to only save people who are intentionally committed to the Christian belief system then it would be very difficult to see sense in the historical strategy. People lived for thousands of years spread all over the globe before any Christianity started. Majority populations were living beyond the reach of the Christian message. The populations of the earth all had well developed systems of spiritual belief asking allegiance.

If I am thinking as a believer in god then I find it difficult not to think that god sees value and purpose in all those other people. They are not like the story of fallen angels in a war in heaven.They are part of our community.

When I thought about our internal life and heart I was not thinking of special messages from god but our awareness and understanding of the values of human life.

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:52 pm

malkie wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:28 am

You completely lost me there, huck!

Why do you think that I (and statistica.com) are talking about a political party? And what do you mean by "human project".

I was responding to your suggestion that the bullhorn was less effective than messages transmitted directly from god to individual humans.

Statistically it seems like the bullhorn was much more effective - no politics, and no "project" involved.

Malkie, like a lot of good questions yours is not really easy. Well an easy take is see it as evidence that there is no god or Christian god. After all if the Christian point is to only save people who are intentionally committed to the Christian belief system then it would be very difficult to see sense in the historical strategy. People lived for thousands of years spread all over the globe before any Christianity started. Majority populations were living beyond the reach of the Christian message. The populations of the earth all had well developed systems of spiritual belief asking allegiance.

If I am thinking as a believer in god then I find it difficult not to think that god sees value and purpose in all those other people. They are not like the story of fallen angels in a war in heaven.They are part of our community.

When I thought about our internal life and heart I was not thinking of special messages from god but our awareness and understanding of the values of human life.

Thanks for the explanation, huckelberry. That's very different from what I was thinking, but I see that it makes sense from the believer's PoV. (For me, this is dangerous territory - I got myself into Mormonism 50 years ago by seeing another PoV, and committing myself to an experiment based on that PoV )

Rivendale wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 12, 2022 10:12 pm

That is something that has always bothered me. For a father that wants his children to return to him he has a strange way of communicating. Whispering in individual ears rather than a collective bullhorn. And even worse using a third party to transmit his message.

Lots of good discussion in the last few pages here. Yes, Rivendale, that is something that bothered me for a long time as well. I think I sort of felt more comfortable with it when I asked myself what was the point of this life. I don't think it is an easy question to answer, but Latter-day Saints generally don't believe we are here to find out the right answer to the God question. We don't "win" life when we know which understanding of God is the correct one. We "win" life when we become a good, decent person. That can be done in all sorts of religion or irreligion. I think that is why personal revelation is individualized, because the change a person needs to make to become a better person is individual. With this framework in mind, if God is trying to get us to become good people, regardless of our beliefs, then I get the sense that if God were to come down and speak to us with a bullhorn, he would have to speak to each of us individually with a bullhorn, which sort of defeats the purpose of the bullhorn.

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 12, 2022 11:19 pm

Rivendale, I wonder if your argument goes against your own point. You point to examples where the big bullhorn did not actually work. One might consider that perhaps in this world an alternative is being tried. People have to look into themselves to discover the light. It is not a trick pop quiz where we have to get a strange rule correct. We have to find our own light for moral value and caring for others. Discovery in ones own life might be far stronger than a bullhorn message.

As Huckleberry mentioned, I wonder if our pre-Earth life was the test of knowledge and this life is a different type of test. If we already read through all the fine print of the Life contract in the pre-Earth life, and we will remember all of that again sometime after death, then it makes no sense to have this life be a repeat of collecting that information. If that was a test of knowledge, then this life is a test of what we do when we don't have knowledge. This life is to see if we will become a good person (i.e. like God) when it doesn't exactly make sense to do so, given the information around us.

JohnW wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:59 am

Lots of good discussion in the last few pages here. Yes, Rivendale, that is something that bothered me for a long time as well. I think I sort of felt more comfortable with it when I asked myself what was the point of this life. I don't think it is an easy question to answer, but Latter-day Saints generally don't believe we are here to find out the right answer to the God question. We don't "win" life when we know which understanding of God is the correct one. We "win" life when we become a good, decent person. That can be done in all sorts of religion or irreligion. I think that is why personal revelation is individualized, because the change a person needs to make to become a better person is individual. With this framework in mind, if God is trying to get us to become good people, regardless of our beliefs, then I get the sense that if God were to come down and speak to us with a bullhorn, he would have to speak to each of us individually with a bullhorn, which sort of defeats the purpose of the bullhorn.

I think you have that completely wrong John. It's certainly not the doctrine/belief of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Here is how Oaks articulated the Church's position on winning/losing in this life:

...salvation is granted in different kingdoms of glory. We know from modern revelation that “all kingdoms have a law given.”12 Significantly:

“He who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

“And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

“And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory.”13

In other words, the kingdom of glory we receive in the Final Judgment is determined by the laws we choose to abide by in our Heavenly Father’s loving plan. Under that plan there are multiple kingdoms so that all of His children can be assigned to a kingdom where they can “abide.”

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

How can an individual from a different religion, or no religion, achieve a place in the Latter-day Saints Celestial Kingdom?

What if God uses persons such as myself as His bullhorn to make known His plan to reconcile mankind to Himself? As a believer of the biblical gospel, I am tasked to represent and make Him known on earth. I come here day after day proclaiming Jesus’ as the propitiation for our sin, his life, death, burial, and resurrection, I urge people to surrender their lives to God, yet day after day, the the message of God’s good news is often rejected or pushed aside. What more do you want from Him? He gave a book that tells us what we need to know in order to know Him personally. He sent His redeemed ones to tell of the good news. He tore the veil at Jesus’ crucifixion so we may have direct access to Him.

And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, Acts 17:25-27

God is a free gift to be received. He is the only wise one. Yet, we seek wisdom from everywhere except Him.

I’ve got to leave for work. Seek and find Him, friends. He isn’t far from each of us.

msnobody wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:49 am

What if God uses persons such as myself as His bullhorn to make known His plan to reconcile mankind to Himself? As a believer of the biblical gospel, I am tasked to represent and make Him known on earth. I come here day after day proclaiming Jesus’ as the propitiation for our sin, his life, death, burial, and resurrection, I urge people to surrender their lives to God, yet day after day, the the message of God’s good news is often rejected or pushed aside. What more do you want from Him? He gave a book that tells us what we need to know in order to know Him personally. He sent His redeemed ones to tell of the good news. He tore the veil at Jesus’ crucifixion so we may have direct access to Him.

And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, Acts 17:25-27

God is a free gift to be received. He is the only wise one. Yet, we seek wisdom from everywhere except Him.

I’ve got to leave for work. Seek and find Him, friends. He isn’t far from each of us.

Narcissism. And denialism about your god’s true nature:

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women-children, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

You’re practicing deception by claiming your god, as described in the Bible, as loving. He’s violent, insecure, psychopathic, and in severe need of therapy and medication.

- Doc

msnobody wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:49 am

What if God uses persons such as myself as His bullhorn to make known His plan to reconcile mankind to Himself? As a believer of the biblical gospel, I am tasked to represent and make Him known on earth. I come here day after day proclaiming Jesus’ as the propitiation for our sin, his life, death, burial, and resurrection, I urge people to surrender their lives to God, yet day after day, the the message of God’s good news is often rejected or pushed aside.

That's right. People can't simply hate their moms and dads and sons and daughters and replace that love with a love for something they will never know. That's silly. Well, it's really really mean and awful of God to propose. But its a silly thought when you realize it's not true.

What more do you want from Him? He gave a book that tells us what we need to know in order to know Him personally. He sent His redeemed ones to tell of the good news. He tore the veil at Jesus’ crucifixion so we may have direct access to Him.

And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, Acts 17:25-27

God is a free gift to be received. He is the only wise one. Yet, we seek wisdom from everywhere except Him.

I’ve got to leave for work. Seek and find Him, friends. He isn’t far from each of us.

I'm with Doctor Cam on this as well. he gave a book that absolutely offers humanity terror if we took it seriously. That some good and sweet parts get mixed in doesn't give anyone reason to treat it as if its from God.