Wow! LDS endorses national same-sex marriage bill

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dastardly stem
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Re: Wow! LDS endorses national same-sex marriage bill

Post by dastardly stem »

I'm not denying the validity of anything said above, but I do want to say, heartily: Good for the church. It's unexpected but in the end, it's the right thing to do.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Wow! LDS endorses national same-sex marriage bill

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dastardly stem wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 4:43 pm
I'm not denying the validity of anything said above, but I do want to say, heartily: Good for the church. It's unexpected but in the end, it's the right thing to do.
But what’s the right thing? They aren’t actually endorsing anything but a clever gambit by appearing to shift their position. The bill simply makes he issue a states’ rights thing, and leaves churches free to continue to discriminate against tEh GaYz. Please help me understand how this is better than what was in place a week ago?
Specifically, the Senate version states no church can face a civil lawsuit or other legal action for refusing to provide any service or access to its facilities for any marriage it opposes.
All this really does is protect the Cult financially, which of course they’d support.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
dastardly stem
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Re: Wow! LDS endorses national same-sex marriage bill

Post by dastardly stem »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 4:49 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 4:43 pm
I'm not denying the validity of anything said above, but I do want to say, heartily: Good for the church. It's unexpected but in the end, it's the right thing to do.
But what’s the right thing? They aren’t actually endorsing anything but a clever gambit by appearing to shift their position. The bill simply makes he issue a states’ rights thing, and leaves churches free to continue to discriminate against tEh GaYz. Please help me understand how this is better than what was in place a week ago?
Specifically, the Senate version states no church can face a civil lawsuit or other legal action for refusing to provide any service or access to its facilities for any marriage it opposes.
All this really does is protect the Cult financially, which of course they’d support.

- Doc
I can agree that it hardly seems like something. Maybe I'm just happy to see the Church has moved a bit from its previous goal of stopping any same sex marriage from happening. "ok, we'll get on board, since someone added for our benefit a provision that helps protect us too".

I agree the Church ultimately acts in its own self-interest. But whatever...that'll happen anyway.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Wow! LDS endorses national same-sex marriage bill

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

I can’t quite seem to figure out this one out, so maybe a brighter poster can offer some insight. If two women marry in, say, NYC, does that mean the state of Utah would have to recognize their marriage? Or is it just something like an insurance company would have to honor the union rather than a state entity?

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Wonhyo
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Re: Wow! LDS endorses national same-sex marriage bill

Post by Wonhyo »

The announcement of support for federal protection of same-sex marriage isn't the sea change from 2008 that it might otherwise appear to be. The bill also includes protections for religious freedoms (e.g., refusing to recognize or accommodate same-sex marriage in a religious context), which has been a pet issue from the conference and devotional pulpits for a decade or more.

But, most importantly, the bill protects the tax-exempt status of churches even if they discriminate, in their respective religious contexts, against same-sex marriage.

It is the preservation of tax-exempt status in spite of religious discrimination that coaxed the church's support here.
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Re: Wow! LDS endorses national same-sex marriage bill

Post by drumdude »

jpatterson wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:46 pm
This is all a part of Dallin Oaks' long-time strategy of trying to erase the atrocities the LDS Corp. has heaped upon LGBTQ people.

Oaks has never acknowledged or apologized for saying gays and lesbians should be jailed for being themselves.

Oaks has never acknowledge or apologized for the harm caused to the LGBTQ community through the Corp.'s participation in Prop 8.

Oaks has never acknowledged or apologized for the harm caused by "The Policy" several years ago.

Instead, he looks for every opportunity he can to frame the Church as "supportive" of LGBTQ rights while never actually giving an inch on the Corp.'s position that they are apostates who will never have an opportunity for salvation. THAT's the Corp.'s official stance, and yet they're going to get tons of kudos as a result of this announcement.
Well said.
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Re: Wow! LDS endorses national same-sex marriage bill

Post by IHAQ »

Here is what the Church said on Tuesday:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints released the following statement on Tuesday, November 15, 2022 on Church Newsroom.

The doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints related to marriage between a man and a woman is well known and will remain unchanged.

We are grateful for the continuing efforts of those who work to ensure the Respect for Marriage Act includes appropriate religious freedom protections while respecting the law and preserving the rights of our LGBTQ brothers and sisters.

We believe this approach is the way forward. As we work together to preserve the principles and practices of religious freedom together with the rights of LGBTQ individuals, much can be accomplished to heal relationships and foster greater understanding.
https://www.ldsliving.com/church-issues ... ct/s/11130

Here is what Oaks said 7 months ago at April 2022 General Conference:
Fundamental to us is God’s revelation that exaltation can be attained only through faithfulness to the covenants of an eternal marriage between a man and a woman.16 That divine doctrine is why we teach that “gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.”17

That is also why the Lord has required His restored Church to oppose social and legal pressures to retreat from His doctrine of marriage between a man and a woman, to oppose changes that homogenize the differences between men and women or confuse or alter gender.

The restored Church’s positions on these fundamentals frequently provoke opposition. We understand that. Our Heavenly Father’s plan allows for “opposition in all things,”18 and Satan’s most strenuous opposition is directed at whatever is most important to that plan. Consequently, he seeks to oppose progress toward exaltation by distorting marriage, discouraging childbearing, or confusing gender.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

According to Oaks the Church should be opposing this bill, not endorsing it. Endorsement is, according to Oaks, supporting Satan.

Given that the Church's latest position, as articulated in the newsroom statement and its endorsement of the bill, is in opposition to the position outlined by Oaks, one of two things is required. Either Oaks must resign his membership in the Church because it is now supporting Satan, or the Church must disavow Oaks Conference talk and have him apologise for preaching false doctrine.
IHAQ
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Re: Wow! LDS endorses national same-sex marriage bill

Post by IHAQ »

My overriding conclusion after absorbing the reporting on this is that the Church isn't supporting the bill, so much as it's agreeing not to fight it providing the religious freedom caveats are included. The Church has left the field of play. Yet another victory for Satan?
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