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Scott Gordon Attacks Tyler Livingston Over CES Letter
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:40 am
by Doctor Scratch
I was sent this tidbit by an anonymous informant:
“Scott Gordon” wrote:Really Tyler? There are reasons that people might want to leave the church, but I would hope that the CES letter is not one of them. There's a little problem with being factually inaccurate. If 1 of my students wrote that they would get an F for their research. It's like claiming a Dan Brown novel is actually true.
A couple of thoughts here. First, Gordon implies that there are *better* reasons for leaving the Church than the CES Letter. This is a stunning admission. What are these “reasons,” one wonders? Second: “claiming that a Dan Brown novel is actually true” is no different that claiming that the Book of Mormon is “real history.” Gordon, in any case, comes across as a weasel. Livingston, however, isn’t having any of it:
“Tyler Livingston” wrote:Hi Scott, this is a point we’ll have to disagree on.
Meanwhile, Stephen Smoot and DCP continue their war with their fellow Latter-day Saints: Jonathan Neville and the Heartlanders.
Re: Scott Gordon Attacks Tyler Livingston Over CES Letter
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:15 am
by Everybody Wang Chung
Fascinating bit of intel! There is not a corner in the world of Mopology that's safe from Dr. Scratch's reach.
Re: Scott Gordon Attacks Tyler Livingston Over CES Letter
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:11 am
by Kishkumen
Yes, there are better reasons for leaving the LDS Church than the CES Letter. I agree. The sad thing is that the CES Letter is more than enough for most people to leave, which is not a knock against the CES Letter so much as an indictment of the poor quality of LDS apologetics. Given that the CES Letter is bad, what the hell is stopping apologists from coming up with a great counter-argument?
The real problem here is that the nature of the pro-LDS argument is fundamentally flawed, as far as apologetics go. There really is nothing the apologists have to strike back with that will work. If you start off with “there really were Nephites, but you shouldn’t expect me to demonstrate that,” or, even worse, “you can’t prove that there weren’t Nephites,” then the game is up. There are scores of reasons in the CES Letter that gesture in the direction of plausible doubt, there are a lot fewer Mopologetic defenses pointing in the direction of plausibly factually correct.
Once fact became the battleground, the war was lost. You can’t keep people in the Church dangling the possibility that the facts may line up some day in the future. You need a whole different approach to keeping them in the fold. Apologists have, by and large, stuck with the losing playbook.
Re: Scott Gordon Attacks Tyler Livingston Over CES Letter
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:30 am
by Fence Sitter
The problem with the CES letter isn't that there are responses to the issues it raises, it's that those issues are new for a lot of people who have spent their entire lives in the church following leadership's advice to read only faith promoting material. How can a member be aware of responses to issues they have never seen before? My sister along with her husband and a couple of their kids recently announced they were leaving the church and that the CES letter had been instrumental in the beginnings of their exit. If the church had been more open about all of this stuff, running into the CES letter wouldn't be a big deal, in fact, the CES letter would probably not exist. FAIR can be angry about people leaving due to the CES letter without checking their site for responses, but the church itself has discouraged members from going looking anywhere but official sources which FAIR is not.
Re: Scott Gordon Attacks Tyler Livingston Over CES Letter
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:32 am
by Doctor Scratch
A very powerful reply, Reverend. The “Interpreter” Mopplogists have seemingly abandoned the CES Letter: apparently, that is a job for the FAIR Mormon apologists to deal with. You are right that it’s a losing battle, and yet I wonder how it’s any worse than Daniel Peterson and Stephen Smoot (pretending, apparently, to be a Black man posing as “Peter Pan”) ganging up on Jonathan Neville and the Heartlanders. The Interpreter Mopologists’ worst enemies these days are their own fellow Latter-day Saints.
Re: Scott Gordon Attacks Tyler Livingston Over CES Letter
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:41 am
by malkie
Kishkumen wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:11 am
Yes, there are better reasons for leaving the LDS Church than the CES Letter. I agree. The sad thing is that the CES Letter is more than enough for most people to leave, which is not a knock against the CES Letter so much as an indictment of the poor quality of LDS apologetics. Given that the CES Letter is bad, what the hell is stopping apologists from coming up with a great counter-argument?
The real problem here is that the nature of the pro-LDS argument is fundamentally flawed, as far as apologetics go. There really is nothing the apologists have to strike back with that will work. If you start off with “there really were Nephites, but you shouldn’t expect me to demonstrate that,” or, even worse, “you can’t prove that there weren’t Nephites,” then the game is up. There are scores of reasons in the CES Letter that gesture in the direction of plausible doubt, there are a lot fewer Mopologetic defenses pointing in the direction of plausibly factually correct.
Once fact became the battleground, the war was lost. You can’t keep people in the Church dangling the possibility that the facts may line up some day in the future. You need a whole different approach to keeping them in the fold. Apologists have, by and large, stuck with the losing playbook.
I know I've made this point before, but I think that it bears repeating every so often.
Some of the criticism of the CES Letter is due to people expecting it to be something that it is not, and never was intended to be. But for all its flaws, even FAIR is unable to support calling any more than 44% of its content either "error", or "falsehood". If they could do better than that I'm sure that they would.
And calling your opponent's arguments "spin" is pretty weak.
Re: Scott Gordon Attacks Tyler Livingston Over CES Letter
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:33 am
by Philo Sofee
I have noticed an utterly fascinating phenomena concerning the CES Letter. Once FAIR tried to destroy Runnell's arguments on the Book of Abraham, and Runnells came back with answers to their refutation, and obliterated their tissues of absurdities against the CES handling of the papyri questions, no one of the Mopologists anywhere on the Internet, have touched the Book of Abraham argument. They all now gravitate to the weakest arguments in the CES Letter (there are many of them, but the Book of Abraham issues are not among them).
Livingston left in part due to the CES Letter?!? Just WOW! He too was a die hard ardent, enthusiastic, gung-ho, LOVER of the Book of Abraham and papyri! This is news to me. Now I really do want to get hold of Livingston!
Re: Scott Gordon Attacks Tyler Livingston Over CES Letter
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:52 am
by Moksha
Philo Sofee wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:33 am
Now I really do want to get hold of Livingston!
Why not do this jointly with RFM?
P.S. Just has an auditory revelation that
The Return of Elder Pingree: Memoir of a Departed Mormon will be shown on February 13th at Brewvies Cinema Pub in Salt Lake City. It is free, but you must be 21 in case they serve sacramental wine.
Re: Scott Gordon Attacks Tyler Livingston Over CES Letter
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:26 am
by Kishkumen
Fence Sitter wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:30 am
The problem with the CES letter isn't that there are responses to the issues it raises, it's that those issues are new for a lot of people who have spent their entire lives in the church following leadership's advice to read only faith promoting material. How can a member be aware of responses to issues they have never seen before? My sister along with her husband and a couple of their kids recently announced they were leaving the church and that the CES letter had been instrumental in the beginnings of their exit. If the church had been more open about all of this stuff, running into the CES letter wouldn't be a big deal, in fact, the CES letter would probably not exist. FAIR can be angry about people leaving due to the CES letter without checking their site for responses, but the church itself has discouraged members from going looking anywhere but official sources which FAIR is not.
All very true! It does not help that the Church spent so many decades pumping up the invincible, functionally infallible “prophets,” when all it takes is a kid with access to Google to topple that in fifteen minutes.
Re: Scott Gordon Attacks Tyler Livingston Over CES Letter
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:31 am
by Kishkumen
Doctor Scratch wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:32 am
A very powerful reply, Reverend. The “Interpreter” Mopplogists have seemingly abandoned the CES Letter: apparently, that is a job for the FAIR Mormon apologists to deal with. You are right that it’s a losing battle, and yet I wonder how it’s any worse than Daniel Peterson and Stephen Smoot (pretending, apparently, to be a Black man posing as “Peter Pan”) ganging up on Jonathan Neville and the Heartlanders. The Interpreter Mopologists’ worst enemies these days are their own fellow Latter-day Saints.
The Mopologists are Jonny on the Spot for the Kingdom, ready to face any foe of the Brethren or the Gospel. At least the Church gives them lots of work, I suppose.