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Re: Casting a wider net on faith and blessings
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 5:13 pm
by Fence Sitter
malkie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 5:05 pm
A response I've read to the lack of evidence from attempts to test blessings is that god will not participate, but will withhold his blessings from all subjects, so as not to provide evidence of his involvement. Otherwise such a "proof" would negate the need for faith.
So all one has to do to stop God from blessing someone else is to try and measure those blessings.
Who knew God was so easy to manipulate and so desperate to hide His presence that he would withhold blessings from innocent people?
Re: Casting a wider net on faith and blessings
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 5:31 pm
by malkie
Fence Sitter wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 5:13 pm
malkie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 5:05 pm
A response I've read to the lack of evidence from attempts to test blessings is that god will not participate, but will withhold his blessings from all subjects, so as not to provide evidence of his involvement. Otherwise such a "proof" would negate the need for faith.
So all one has to do to stop God from blessing someone else is to try and measure those blessings.
Who knew God was so easy to manipulate and so desperate to hide His presence that he would withhold blessings from innocent people?
This is why priesthood blessings cannot restore limbs, but can only "affect" conditions that either respond to current treatments of various sorts, or might be subject to spontaneous improvement. It would be an indisputable miracle that would "prove" that god was involved - no faith required.
Re: Casting a wider net on faith and blessings
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:28 pm
by Rivendale
Slightly related. What happens to a person's free agency when they stand in the way of prophecy? Why dosen't god heal amputees has been around a long time and I have never heard a good retort.
https://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Re: Casting a wider net on faith and blessings
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:11 pm
by Doctor Steuss
Rivendale wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:28 pm
Slightly related. What happens to a person's free agency when they stand in the way of prophecy? Why dosen't god heal amputees has been around a long time and I have never heard a good retort.
https://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Maybe he does, but we aren't his most favorite and loved creation, so he just doesn't do it for us.
I imagine it'll be a shock when we get to the pearly gates, and there's a VIP line for axolotls.
Re: Casting a wider net on faith and blessings
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:32 pm
by Moksha
Doctor Steuss wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:11 pm
I imagine it'll be a shock when we get to the pearly gates, and there's a VIP line for axolotls.
They appear to be friendly and look like they could write articles for the Interpreter.
Re: Casting a wider net on faith and blessings
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:11 pm
by Rivendale
Google Eulagisca Gigantea. I haven't mastered how to post good pictures here.
Re: Casting a wider net on faith and blessings
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:37 pm
by Philo Sofee
Moksha wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:32 pm
Doctor Steuss wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:11 pm
I imagine it'll be a shock when we get to the pearly gates, and there's a VIP line for axolotls.
They appear to be friendly and look like they could write articles for the Interpreter.
And, they are white and delightsome!
Re: Casting a wider net on faith and blessings
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:59 pm
by JohnW
malkie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:49 am
To me, this idea of the benevolent god of Mormonism is one of these things that cannot be proven true, but can be proven false, and clearly has been. Unless, of course, the promise is solely about unverifiable events.
It would be interesting to hear more of your thoughts on this. I agree that the idea of God (benevolent or otherwise) cannot be proven true, but I also think the idea of God cannot be proven false either. In my opinion, it all comes down to the assumptions we make about God. We humans usually aren't careful with our assumptions.
Re: Casting a wider net on faith and blessings
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:26 am
by JohnW
Fence Sitter wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:57 pm
If blessings had anything other than a placebo effect, it would be easy to measure.
Multiple times a day in Mormon temples throughout the world, a paper roll filled with names is laid on an alter around which temple patrons kneel and offer a special blessing on those people's names contained on the rolls. A simple study could be constructed in which four similar groups of sick people were studied to see the actual impact of those prayers/blessings.
Group one would be people whose names were actually on the rolls, and they know it.
Group two would be people whose names were not on the rolls but are told that they are.
Group three would be people whose names are on the rolls but are not told.
Group four is a control group who are not on the rolls and not advised the rolls exist.
My guess is that groups one and two show no distinguishable difference, and groups three and four result are the same.
In other words the actual blessing has no effect at all.
By the way, I have suggested this study before to faithful members and the usual response is that I do not understand how these blessings work.
To be completely honest with you, this is the sort of thing that scares me a little. I am a scientist, so yes, that is how I would set up such a test. As a religious person, I would be afraid to look at the results of that study. I certainly believe in the power of prayer. I put people's names on temple prayer roles, and I regularly attend the temple and pray over those folks. I would be uncomfortable with such a study for various reasons.
I guess it is a little like if someone offered to do an exhaustive and invasive study on whether my mother loves me or not. I don't really want anyone to do such a study because I'm pretty sure I already know the answer. At the same time I'm a little afraid of what such a study might uncover.
Re: Casting a wider net on faith and blessings
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:43 am
by Rivendale
JohnW wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:26 am
Fence Sitter wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:57 pm
If blessings had anything other than a placebo effect, it would be easy to measure.
Multiple times a day in Mormon temples throughout the world, a paper roll filled with names is laid on an alter around which temple patrons kneel and offer a special blessing on those people's names contained on the rolls. A simple study could be constructed in which four similar groups of sick people were studied to see the actual impact of those prayers/blessings.
Group one would be people whose names were actually on the rolls, and they know it.
Group two would be people whose names were not on the rolls but are told that they are.
Group three would be people whose names are on the rolls but are not told.
Group four is a control group who are not on the rolls and not advised the rolls exist.
My guess is that groups one and two show no distinguishable difference, and groups three and four result are the same.
In other words the actual blessing has no effect at all.
By the way, I have suggested this study before to faithful members and the usual response is that I do not understand how these blessings work.
To be completely honest with you, this is the sort of thing that scares me a little. I am a scientist, so yes, that is how I would set up such a test. As a religious person, I would be afraid to look at the results of that study. I certainly believe in the power of prayer. I put people's names on temple prayer roles, and I regularly attend the temple and pray over those folks. I would be uncomfortable with such a study for various reasons.
I guess it is a little like if someone offered to do an exhaustive and invasive study on whether my mother loves me or not. I don't really want anyone to do such a study because I'm pretty sure I already know the answer. At the same time I'm a little afraid of what such a study might uncover.
Are you afraid of true things? Or is it the mocking god fear?