Heartland vs MesoAmerica - a cage match

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
User avatar
malkie
God
Posts: 1478
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:41 pm

Heartland vs MesoAmerica - a cage match

Post by malkie »

I don't see how they can both get out "alive" - at least not without some serious humility, stepping back, and accepting responsibility for un-Christlike behaviour on one or both sides. Even then, I believe that for one side now to admit it is wrong is a blow against the church.

Here are some thoughts provoked by the ongoing dispute:
  • It's interesting to see such a heated argument over a question that the leaders of the church have not only not (recently) expressed a view on, but have actually explicitly stated that they do not have a position on.
  • I wonder if part of the reason for the non-position is that siding with one or the other would involve two potential negatives:
    - scientific evidence could prove the chosen side to be wrong - not good for the brethren's credibility
    - members on the non-chosen side may have their faith badly shaken, and/or be alienated from the church
  • There appears to be a bit of a lack of brotherly love - where are the fruits of the true gospel?
  • I suspect that, as faithful members, each side believes that they are guided by the Holy Ghost whispering to them - fulfilling the promise made to them when they were confirmed. Can either side really concede that either they themselves are wrong, and thus misled, or that the other side, who by definition must be wrong, might also be subject to the whisperings of the spirit?
  • As a bit of an outsider looking in, I see in full display the weakness of the church claims about its authority, and its relationship with the godhead: both sides cannot be right, but they can both be wrong. So, for the claims of the church to be valid, how is it possible that the Holy Ghost has managed to mess up so badly?
  • Must we then admit that nobody can depend on the Holy Ghost for anything?
Can either side climb out of the cage and claim victory without damaging not only the other side but the church as a whole?

I don't really care if one side prevails or not, and if so which side it is. But it's painful to watch the match going on.
You can help Ukraine by talking for an hour a week!! PM me, or check www.enginprogram.org for details.
Слава Україні!, 𝑺𝒍𝒂𝒗𝒂 𝑼𝒌𝒓𝒂𝒊𝒏𝒊!
drumdude
God
Posts: 5212
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: Heartland vs MesoAmerica - a cage match

Post by drumdude »

It does explain why the brethren don’t want to touch the issue with a 10ft pole.
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 5015
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:18 am

Re: Heartland vs MesoAmerica - a cage match

Post by Philo Sofee »

drumdude wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:29 am
It does explain why the brethren don’t want to touch the issue with a 10ft pole.
I actually told Neville that tonight on the show. I told him between his side and the Mesoamerican guys you are turning the poor brethren grey! :lol:
User avatar
Moksha
God
Posts: 5810
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:13 am
Location: Koloburbia

Re: Heartland vs MesoAmerica - a cage match

Post by Moksha »

Put Shulem into the cage and let him bop both sides with his beefy Delmarva hypothesis. Heck, even the Malaysian hypothesis packs a more evidentiary punch than the NHM inscription.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 8979
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: Heartland vs MesoAmerica - a cage match

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Moksha wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:28 am
Put Shulem into the cage and let him bop both sides with his beefy Delmarva hypothesis. Heck, even the Malaysian hypothesis packs a more evidentiary punch than the NHM inscription.
I still question whether or not Dan Vogel grasps what Shulem is driving at. It takes a hot minute, but once you get it, Shulem’s theory really does make a lot of sense.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
dastardly stem
God
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:38 pm

Re: Heartland vs MesoAmerica - a cage match

Post by dastardly stem »

Its a funny battle considering neither side has any reason to think the story is ancient. When is a group of Mormons going to get together and lay out how the Book is not ancient but yet inspired? After these two groups show how silly it is to say the book is ancient? You have to take a pretty big blind leap of faith to even be able to jump into the same arena where these two are fighting it out. Its like two children fighting an embarrassing useless fight. If an adult had a chance to sit and talk it through with each kid, they'd realize how silly they are being.

They've failed to answer the important question so in order to distract from that and sound credible, they're fighting over a question that only matters if they first one ever got resolved.

I'm not a baker, but it's like two chefs fighting over which ingredients to put in, but they have no flour to even get started.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
drumdude
God
Posts: 5212
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: Heartland vs MesoAmerica - a cage match

Post by drumdude »

dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:50 pm
Its a funny battle considering neither side has any reason to think the story is ancient. When is a group of Mormons going to get together and lay out how the Book is not ancient but yet inspired? After these two groups show how silly it is to say the book is ancient? You have to take a pretty big blind leap of faith to even be able to jump into the same arena where these two are fighting it out. Its like two children fighting an embarrassing useless fight. If an adult had a chance to sit and talk it through with each kid, they'd realize how silly they are being.

They've failed to answer the important question so in order to distract from that and sound credible, they're fighting over a question that only matters if they first one ever got resolved.

I'm not a baker, but it's like two chefs fighting over which ingredients to put in, but they have no flour to even get started.
Any day now they'll unearth Zarahemla. DCP still holds a candle.
User avatar
malkie
God
Posts: 1478
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:41 pm

Re: Heartland vs MesoAmerica - a cage match

Post by malkie »

In the meantime, disinterested onlookers witnessing "brothers in the gospel" biting, kicking, and screaming at each other must be wondering what on earth it's all about, and if they should walk - no, run - away.
You can help Ukraine by talking for an hour a week!! PM me, or check www.enginprogram.org for details.
Слава Україні!, 𝑺𝒍𝒂𝒗𝒂 𝑼𝒌𝒓𝒂𝒊𝒏𝒊!
User avatar
Nimrod
Star B
Posts: 119
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:20 pm

Re: Heartland vs MesoAmerica - a cage match

Post by Nimrod »

A cage match over where a fictitious people lived? Ha ha ha.

It appears to me that mopologists are playing a game of 3 card monte. The LGT in MesoAmerica allows them to keep claiming that anyone else taking a look at MesoAmerica has not focused on the 'correct' location, even though the LGT fails to offer the pecise location. It is utterly Mormon: Joseph Smith told Josiah Stowell's men that once they dug in one spot and nothing was there, the evil spirits had relocated the treasure somewhere else underground. Smith would point them to the next spot to begin digging. So too have Sorenson and acolytes been and continue to be as slippery.

The heartlanders seem earnest, but are not sufficiently vague (slippery) to avoid being disproved. They are a much easier target, so easy the LGT crowd goes after them. Mormon-e-Mormon style.

But neither has produced any archaelogical evidence that there ever were Nephites or Lamanites. So what then? Does it really matter where unicorns lived if there were no unicorns?
Apologists try to shill an explanation to questioning members as though science and reason really explain and buttress their professed faith. It [sic] does not. By definition, faith is the antithesis of science and reason. Apologetics is a further deception by faith peddlers to keep power and influence.
User avatar
malkie
God
Posts: 1478
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:41 pm

Re: Heartland vs MesoAmerica - a cage match

Post by malkie »

Nimrod wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:03 pm
A cage match over where a fictitious people lived? Ha ha ha.

It appears to me that mopologists are playing a game of 3 card monte. The LGT in MesoAmerica allows them to keep claiming that anyone else taking a look at MesoAmerica has not focused on the 'correct' location, even though the LGT fails to offer the pecise location. It is utterly Mormon: Joseph Smith told Josiah Stowell's men that once they dug in one spot and nothing was there, the evil spirits had relocated the treasure somewhere else underground. Smith would point them to the next spot to begin digging. So too have Sorenson and acolytes been and continue to be as slippery.

The heartlanders seem earnest, but are not sufficiently vague (slippery) to avoid being disproved. They are a much easier target, so easy the LGT crowd goes after them. Mormon-e-Mormon style.

But neither has produced any archaelogical evidence that there ever were Nephites or Lamanites. So what then? Does it really matter where unicorns lived if there were no unicorns?
Yes - I cannot disagree.

The question of where unicorns lived may really matter to people whose entire lives are tied up in an organization in which belief in unicorns is a requirement for all sorts of intangible "rewards", most of which come after death. If unicorns existed, then they must have existed somewhere, right? It's inevitable that some people will take sides on the "where".

People who do not believe in unicorns, but whose lives are still entangled with members of the organization, are in a difficult spot, especially if they still believe in the rewards. Worse is that they risk becoming social and familial outcasts simply as a result of not believing in unicorns.
You can help Ukraine by talking for an hour a week!! PM me, or check www.enginprogram.org for details.
Слава Україні!, 𝑺𝒍𝒂𝒗𝒂 𝑼𝒌𝒓𝒂𝒊𝒏𝒊!
Post Reply