Re: Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option
Posted: Wed May 10, 2023 5:22 am
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Please tell us what the right types of argument are that keep you believing in Mormonism.JohnW wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 3:50 amWhat he found out that day was that his understanding of the whole situation was terribly incomplete. When we talk about existence of God, most people use the wrong types of argument. . . If your faith is primarily in your personal experience, then that could be a good thing and would eventually lead you to the truth.Dr. Shades wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 9:54 amWe can all list a number of completely coherent and logical reasons to NOT believe in Santa Claus. If I nevertheless rejected those reasons and trusted what my parents and classmates had originally told me about him--you know, had faith in Santa Claus--would you praise me or pity me? Why?
JohnW wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 2:26 amThis is probably one of the main reasons faith is difficult for you, assuming that is the case. I'm not trying to be offensive, just pointing out that the personality types that are highly logical tend to have issues with faith. I am one of those personality types. There was a time I really struggled with faith. It is still an uncomfortable thing for me at times.
The main problem with this personality type (speaking from experience) is that we assume that if something is logical, then it is true. It only takes an elementary study of logic to know this is not the case. Logic is a good method to process information, but if the initial information is bad, no amount of logic will help you find the truth. This is true in both secular and non-secular realms.
Good points, and fair questions, JohnW!JohnW wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 2:42 amThis is probably the crux of the issue for you. I understand that in some cases there is sufficient evidence to weigh things in your mind, as you describe. What do you do when there is inconclusive evidence and you must make a decision? Surely you have come across situations like this in your life. In addition there are situations where we think we have conclusive evidence, but we actually don't . . . and we won't discover that fact until sometime in the future.
I guess if you live in such a way to never chose to believe in anything, then in my mind you limit your choices to situations where you have sufficient evidence (or feel like you do). That doesn't seem like living life to its full extent, but I recognize I am biased. I can come up with a bunch of examples of decisions in life where we are hopeful and believe the choice we make will be something good for us despite the inconclusive evidence we have at the moment of decision.
I disagree. You absolutely have to believe in inconsistencies. Rising from the dead for one requires a complete reset for all human experiences. Spritual interactions with human brains require a belief in a realm we have no concrete evidence for. And if human experiences are discounted in favor of bad logic what is left?Physics Guy wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 9:47 amLogic will accept assumptions that aren't actually true, as long as they're consistent. So logic isn't a sufficient guide to truth, for anyone. Everyone needs something besides logic.
Logic isn't just useless, though. Logic can screen out initial assumptions that are self-contradictory, or that contradict other assumptions to which you are also committed. Those things definitely cannot all be true. Whatever is true, it's not them.
Logic is a sniff test. Logic can't detect every falsehood, just as sniffing won't save you from odorless poisons in food. The fact that you can't smell botulism anyway is not a good reason to swallow everything in the fridge without sniffing it, though. There are other bad things besides botulism, and a lot of them do smell bad. You can save yourself from those things by applying the sniff test.
So I do not agree that having religious faith is about believing logically inconsistent things. Logic isn't a sufficient guide to truth but it is a necessary one.
Somewhat unrelated (maybe?), but this reminded me of a book about children and logic I read a long (long) time ago. I unfortunately can't remember the title or author (and google isn't being any help).Physics Guy wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 9:47 amLogic will accept assumptions that aren't actually true, as long as they're consistent. So logic isn't a sufficient guide to truth, for anyone. Everyone needs something besides logic.
Logic isn't just useless, though. Logic can screen out initial assumptions that are self-contradictory, or that contradict other assumptions to which you are also committed. Those things definitely cannot all be true. Whatever is true, it's not them.
Logic is a sniff test. Logic can't detect every falsehood, just as sniffing won't save you from odorless poisons in food. The fact that you can't smell botulism anyway is not a good reason to swallow everything in the fridge without sniffing it, though. There are other bad things besides botulism, and a lot of them do smell bad. You can save yourself from those things by applying the sniff test.
So I do not agree that having religious faith is about believing logically inconsistent things. Logic isn't a sufficient guide to truth but it is a necessary one.
More importantly than the prayer in their hearts, did the two brothers who set on this journey have the faith not to find the lost Saints?On June 15, 2021, two brothers--both returned missionaries for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--set out on a mission of discovery into a remote part of the DR Congo. Their hope was to find a group of believers who had been waiting for baptism for nearly 50 years. No one knew what they would find or if they would find anything at all. Yet, with little more than a prayer in their hearts, they set out on a 1,200-kilometer journey to find those lost Saints.
I've shared my experience a few times, but it seems worth bringing up in context of the above. My journey out of the LDS faith wasn't a shelf breaking epiphany. It was a line-upon-line experience. While hard to say this was the real start, it is useful for me to see that start with my being in college and in an Army Reserve Unit that was activated to go to Iraq during the build-up to war. Most members of our unit were all-in on the argument that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, that Hussein was involved in 9/11, and that unilateral war was justified. I wasn't sure the evidence supported this, but if anything I was a soldier and duty was duty. Experience and a little time led me to feel misled, with damning consequences, and a sense that just because authority was asserted shouldn't mean I comply if something seemed wrong. The Church and its authority wasn't on my mind initially, but it had to be confronted when I came across an issue online with LDS history and my instinct was well-trained to ignore it, move on. With this new life experience, I realized doing so wasn't honest so I didn't, but still acted in faith that the answers were available, my own spiritual experiences sure, and the truth would redeem the Church.JohnW wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 2:19 amThanks. I look forward to it. When comparing riding a bike to faith, I'm more comparing the feeling of learning a bike to the feeling of beginning to have faith. It reminds me of the same feelings: uncomfortable, exposed, unsure, and even a little scary. There are clearly some aspects of the comparison that just don't fit.Morley wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 7:56 amThank you for your long, thoughtful reply, John. I’m not able to now, but will try to respond, in like manner, in a couple of weeks.
Edit:
A few words, until then: It also reads as though it’s “Pride and Faith” that are the duo that are making you stay in the Church. Am I wrong? I’m not sure that I’m picking up on your humility and doubt.
Trust that one can master a simple machine that you’ve seen hundreds of children ride to school, is not the same as having a faith in a supernatural being who made an evil man rich and cursed my friend with black skin so he can’t vote. Then this all-powerful, all-knowing being sent men, who said they were prophets, who either misrepresented or lied to me about what they absolutely knew that he (God) said. Faith in God and bicycle riding are not the same. It’s not pride or faith keeping me from mastering the bike, it’s lack of practice.
That bicycle might get me to work, but it’s not going to raise me from the dead.
As far as pride and faith keeping me in the church. I'll have to think about that one. I look forward to your explanation.