DiscussMormonism.com

Tom wrote: ↑

Sun May 28, 2023 8:35 pm

Interesting that the proprietor seems to have added a few sentences to his original comment:

Permit me to just comment here that, although more than a few accounts of near-death experiences mention encountering Jesus, I’m inclined to think that, in almost all of these experiences, the personage who is met is not Jesus. Worldwide, there are something on the order of 335,000 deaths per day, which means that there are approximately 14,000 deaths per hour and not quite 250 deaths per minute. I understand that time may function rather differently in the next world, but I still doubt that Jesus is personally present in even a significant percentage of deaths. Indeed, most NDE accounts don’t report encounters with Jesus, though a fair proportion do mention a “being of light” who often remains unidentified but, when named, is sometimes variously identified (often with the name of a prophet or holy personage from the religious background of the person relating the experience). There are vanishingly few cases in which the personage identifies himself as Jesus. (There may well be some but, off hand, I can’t think of any.) I expect that, in very many of these cases, the dying individual who feels strong love and acceptance emanating from a glorious person simply identifies that person as the most holy figure he or she can name (e.g., Jesus, Muhammad, Krishna, etc.). Doctrine and Covenants 1:38 may be apropos here, with the Lord declaring that “my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.”

Permit me to just comment here that, although more than a few accounts of near-death experiences mention encountering Jesus, I’m inclined to think that, in almost all of these experiences, the personage who is met is not Jesus. Worldwide, there are something on the order of 335,000 deaths per day, which means that there are approximately 14,000 deaths per hour and not quite 250 deaths per minute. I understand that time may function rather differently in the next world, but I still doubt that Jesus is personally present in even a significant percentage of deaths. Indeed, most NDE accounts don’t report encounters with Jesus, though a fair proportion do mention a “being of light” who often remains unidentified but, when named, is sometimes variously identified (often with the name of a prophet or holy personage from the religious background of the person relating the experience). There are relatively few cases in which the personage explicitly and verbally identifies himself as Jesus. (Are there any? Probably.). I expect that, in very many of these cases, the dying individual who feels strong love and acceptance emanating from a glorious person simply identifies that person as the most holy figure he or she can name (e.g., Jesus, Muhammad, Krishna, etc.). Doctrine and Covenants 1:38 may be apropos here, with the Lord declaring that “my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.”

malkie wrote: ↑

Mon May 29, 2023 1:11 am

Tom wrote: ↑

Sun May 28, 2023 9:07 pm

Did he formally introduce himself to Dr. Neal? If he didn’t, it may very well have been someone else. Using the proprietor’s scientific criterion, I characterize the following as a borderline account: Jesus or not Jesus? You make the call.

In the canonized First Vision account, which figure identifies himself as Heavenly Father, and which as Jesus Christ?

When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

Tom wrote: ↑

Mon May 29, 2023 2:01 am

malkie wrote: ↑

Mon May 29, 2023 1:11 am

In the canonized First Vision account, which figure identifies himself as Heavenly Father, and which as Jesus Christ?

That’s an interesting point. Neither personage in the 1838 account explicitly and verbally identifies himself as Heavenly Father or Jesus.

When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

Gadianton wrote: ↑

Mon May 29, 2023 1:27 am

Everybody Wang Chung wrote: In this very same book, the author, Mary C. Neal not only sees Jesus, but has a rather long dialogue with Jesus.

bzzt. Jesus wouldn't appear to a woman. The way it would work in the corporate church as it extends beyond the veil is that the being would need to be her husband representing the local low-level authority of that part of the spirit world. If her husband was either still alive, or dead but hadn't converted to the Church, then she'd most likely be out of luck, but perhaps she could be granted a meeting with either the low-level local authority, or another deceased male relative who had converted to the Church and holds the priesthood(perhaps in the spirit world), who had been cleared by the local low-level authority to have the meeting. But even that would only be possible if she was married and acting in the capacity of a mother in this life, such that if her husband were deceased and also converted and active in the Church, that he would then be cleared to meet with her. If she wasn't married then she'd have to have a Sheri-Dew level of an excuse as to why not in order to qualify for any meeting. In Mormonism there is a ton of red tape and you have to go through all of these counterfactuals to understand why someone like DCP might hesitate to believe certain aspects of the story.

Everybody Wang Chung wrote: ↑

Mon May 29, 2023 1:35 am

In what is alarmingly becoming more and more frequent, the proprietor of SeN is forced to issue yet another addendum to one of his articles.

ETA: On the other hand, as a friend writes to remind me — I read both of Dr. Neal’s books quite some time ago, and am only now extracting my notes from this one — her own description of her experience seems clearly to indicate an encounter with Jesus. (I don’t have the book with me at the moment to look.) I have no reason to believe that such encounters don’t occur. In fact, I think they probably do. On a slightly different front, at least two other people claim that I’m now admitting that NDEs are all purely subjective or imaginary, but that isn’t my position at all. Quite the contrary. I’m simply saying that, when encountering a being of glorious light, perfect compassion, and supreme holiness, it’s entirely to be expected that near-death experiencers from Christian backgrounds would be inclined to identify that being as Jesus. And that there is actually sound theological reason (in the principle of divine investiture) for the “error.” ...

DCP wrote:Worldwide, there are something on the order of 335,000 deaths per day, which means that there are approximately 14,000 deaths per hour and not quite 250 deaths per minute. I understand that time may function rather differently in the next world, but I still doubt that Jesus is personally present in even a significant percentage of deaths.