DiscussMormonism.com

The Proprietor of "Sic et Non" is at it again with his NDE obsession. This time around, he relates a few different stories where the people in question claim to have died and to have seen Jesus while they were "on the other side of the veil." Interestingly, despite his overwhelming--and seemingly desperate--fixation on NDEs, he nonetheless goes on to accuse these people of imagining things:

DCP wrote:Permit me to just comment here that, although more than a few accounts of near-death experiences mention encountering Jesus, I’m inclined to think that, in almost all of these experiences, the personage who is met is not Jesus. Worldwide, there are something on the order of 335,000 deaths per day, which means that there are approximately 14,000 deaths per hour and not quite 250 deaths per minute. I understand that time may function rather differently in the next world, but I still doubt that Jesus is personally present in even significant percentage of deaths. Indeed, most NDE accounts don’t report encounters with Jesus, though a fair proportion do mention a “being of light” who often remains unidentified but, when named, is sometimes variously identified (often with the name of a prophet or holy personage from the religious background of the person relating the experience. I expect that, in very many of these cases, the dying individual feeling strong love and acceptance emanating from a glorious person simply identifies that person as the most holy figure he or she can name (e.g., Jesus, Muhammad, Krishna, etc.). Doctrine and Covenants 1:38 may be apropos here, with the Lord declaring that “my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.”

Wow! This is quite a staggering admission from him! So these folks are merely imaginging that it's Jesus, but it's not really him? And notice that Dr. Peterson says that he thinks folks are imagining things "in *almost* all" of the accounts. That means that *some* people actually *do* meet with Jesus? What do you want to bet that the only ones who get the privilege, in DCP's view, are LDS? If the Pope were to have an NDE and he saw Jesus, would that be the *real* Jesus?

But then he undermines the whole thing with his musings at the end: "the dying individual...simply identifies that person as the most holy figure he or she can name." Ah, well, then. This doesn't do much to support LDS doctrine, does it? I've always found it amusing that Dr. Peterson is so obsessed with NDEs and yet he seems incapable of seeing how much they undermine his own Church's teachings. I mean, how many of these accounts actually support Mormon theology? Is there a single story where the person wakes up and is told that they now get to become a God? Or where they are clearly aware that they're on their way to the Celestial Kingdom? I think the lone, legitimately Mormon-related NDE that has ever popped up in these discussions has been the one where the guy had an NDE in which he saw Joseph Smith burning in hell. Quite a blow to Mopologetics!

But it actually gets worse, because if these NDEs truly do point to an actual afterlife, then boy: that really sucks for the Mopologists. Just think: all the people on this board will get to have eternal life. They spent countless hours flipping off the Church and the apologists, didn't pay tithing or waste hour in Church meetings, and yet, they get to go be "one with the light" after death! All those sacrifices that the Mopologists made will amount to nothing.

Unless the NDEs can be used to show how one gets a "bonus" of some kind due to being LDS, then, in the end, they undermine the Mopologists' goals. I applaud Dr. Peterson for being so much of an obsessive dunce--so desperate for an afterlife--that he's been blind to how much these stories undermine everything he's worked for. It's richly satisfying on many levels.

It’s almost as if he’s saying NDEs are subjective experiences which don’t have a strong (if any) link to reality.

Dan, you really need some help coming up with basic coherent theses for your books.

I'm sure Kish has already received several hate emails from DCP over this OP.


Kerry Muhlestein: “I start out with an assumption that the Book of Abraham and the Book of Mormon, and anything else that we get from the restored gospel, is true. Therefore, any evidence I find, I will try to fit into that paradigm."

This is quite humorous Doctor Scratch, thank you for sharing it. The Proprietor and I are kindred spirits I must admit, as I got in trouble during FHE once for using the same logic to cast doubt on Dad's claim that during the Millennium, we will spend long, personal sessions in the temple learning from Jesus. A thousand years divided by the number of people spared divided by...well, it's one of those threads he better quit pulling at or he'll end up in a faith crisis.

It's quite revealing about his psychology, though. I mean, we can't just have everybody meeting Jesus. People need to learn something about Mormon organizational bureaucracy before sharing their visions. Even Joseph Smith originally claimed only to have seen an angel and not God himself. People need to understand that they just aren't that important. If you have a perplexing gospel question, you can write to the Brethren but expect an answer back from the secretary of a secretary directing you to your bishop. And if you die, expect to be met by a low-ranking regional authority from the Spirit World. Believe it or not, the Church leaders actually endorse the Proprietor's vision of eternity as I've heard things similar straight from Henry Eyring not very long ago.

drumdude wrote: ↑

Sun May 28, 2023 6:51 pm

It’s almost as if he’s saying NDEs are subjective experiences which don’t have a strong (if any) link to reality.

Dan, you really need some help coming up with basic coherent theses for your books.

And yet the witnesses can't be mistaken. Weren't fooled into seeing plates and visions. Joseph's incredible accumulation of miraculous experiences such as finding Zelph, Adam's alter, Book of Abraham papyrus were all part of the plan. It reminds me of an old Simpsons episode.

Chalmers: Yes, I should be--good lord, what is happening in there?!
Skinner: Aurora Borealis?
Chalmers: Ah- Aurora Borealis?! At this time of year, at this time of day, in this part of the country, localized entirely within your kitchen?!
Skinner: Yes.
Chalmers: ...May I see it?
Skinner: ...No.

At least they still have chiasmus!

What would Dr. Peterson regard as a credible account of a NDE?

Interesting that the proprietor seems to have added a few sentences to his original comment:

Permit me to just comment here that, although more than a few accounts of near-death experiences mention encountering Jesus, I’m inclined to think that, in almost all of these experiences, the personage who is met is not Jesus. Worldwide, there are something on the order of 335,000 deaths per day, which means that there are approximately 14,000 deaths per hour and not quite 250 deaths per minute. I understand that time may function rather differently in the next world, but I still doubt that Jesus is personally present in even a significant percentage of deaths. Indeed, most NDE accounts don’t report encounters with Jesus, though a fair proportion do mention a “being of light” who often remains unidentified but, when named, is sometimes variously identified (often with the name of a prophet or holy personage from the religious background of the person relating the experience). There are vanishingly few cases in which the personage identifies himself as Jesus. (There may well be some but, off hand, I can’t think of any.) I expect that, in very many of these cases, the dying individual who feels strong love and acceptance emanating from a glorious person simply identifies that person as the most holy figure he or she can name (e.g., Jesus, Muhammad, Krishna, etc.). Doctrine and Covenants 1:38 may be apropos here, with the Lord declaring that “my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.”

Moksha wrote: ↑

Sun May 28, 2023 8:15 pm

What would Dr. Peterson regard as a credible account of a NDE?

Well, DCP related his own NDE a few years ago. If I remember correctly, it went something like this:

As the surgeon and the nurses worked to re-start my cholesterol filled heart, I floated above the operating table and found myself looking down on the entire scene. I noticed then that the surgeon wasn't wearing garments. After my recovery, I made sure to give him a 1 Star review on Yelp, but I digress. Soon, I was passing through a long tunnel of light. At the end of it, I saw all my deceased relatives dressed in white temple robes, waiting for me and beckoning lovingly, with the exception of Uncle Bob, who said, “Whoa, someone’s put on a few pounds.” I said, “Excuse me?” And he said, “I’m surprised you could make it through the light tunnel with those hips. Also, what's with your fake accent?” Before I could make a witty retort, my life began flashing before my eyes: a baby in a massive crib, a toddler sitting in a wagon demanding someone pull me, a five-year-old getting a copy of "Added Upon" for my birthday. It was going along like that— flash, flash—until my life stopped in high school, when I had just been elected Student Body president, best dressed and most likely to succeed. My opponent was sitting on a bench crying over the crushing defeat I had just handed him a few hours earlier. I had to relive that awful scene: the crushed and dejected crying of my opponent and my raging anger over his cry-baby behavior ruining my well-deserved victory. What an inconsiderate jerk. Then, intense surges of unconditional love and acceptance coursed through me as if I were being bathed in a warm, healing light. For the first time, I loved myself and all living beings, even Kish, Shades, Drumdude and Dr. Scratch. And then, suddenly, I was back in that grubby little hospital room, feeling like crap. I'm thinking of suing the hospital and the doctor.

Tom wrote: ↑

Sun May 28, 2023 8:35 pm

Interesting that the proprietor seems to have added a few sentences to his original comment:

Permit me to just comment here that, although more than a few accounts of near-death experiences mention encountering Jesus, I’m inclined to think that, in almost all of these experiences, the personage who is met is not Jesus. Worldwide, there are something on the order of 335,000 deaths per day, which means that there are approximately 14,000 deaths per hour and not quite 250 deaths per minute. I understand that time may function rather differently in the next world, but I still doubt that Jesus is personally present in even a significant percentage of deaths. Indeed, most NDE accounts don’t report encounters with Jesus, though a fair proportion do mention a “being of light” who often remains unidentified but, when named, is sometimes variously identified (often with the name of a prophet or holy personage from the religious background of the person relating the experience). There are vanishingly few cases in which the personage identifies himself as Jesus. (There may well be some but, off hand, I can’t think of any.) I expect that, in very many of these cases, the dying individual who feels strong love and acceptance emanating from a glorious person simply identifies that person as the most holy figure he or she can name (e.g., Jesus, Muhammad, Krishna, etc.). Doctrine and Covenants 1:38 may be apropos here, with the Lord declaring that “my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.”

Wait.....What?!

In that same article the proprietor discusses a book by Mary C. Neal, 7 Lessons from Heaven: How Dying Taught Me to Live a Joy-Filled Life (New York: Convergent Books, 2017. In this very same book, the author, Mary C. Neal not only sees Jesus, but has a rather long dialogue with Jesus.

Folks, you can't make this stuff up.