I don't want to continue with Carrier. I didn't want to discuss him. This thread wasn't about him at all. It's about something else. How I let it get down that rabbit hole is not important and not what I've been trying to talk about here. But, I do appreciate the comments in the past few responses. i'm glad there is plenty more for me to consider here. Nobody's buying Carrier hook, line and sinker, as they say. He has some interesting points that appear to be unresolved. And, as it turns out, its not just him. But, with that said. Who cares? This is turning into an academic exercise that has nothing to do with me, this thread, my points, or anything of the sort. One thing is sure, though. He brings out the vitriol. I have no desire to defend his work, at least not as a whole. If some of you have something to say to him, I say do it. Who wouldn't be up for a little drama among scholars? But I'm not him, nor am I his disciple as some might think or wish to treat me as.
As I said, I'm quite close to around 50/50 on the issue under discussion. He may have persuaded me to his side somewhat. But so? I have many other ideas to consider here. And a few other works of scholarship. I don't see anyone really addressing much more than a very generalized view of why they don't think he's credible. And yet his points, that largely enjoy majority opinion in scholarship, the ones that remain untouched by criticism, basically, are still there. There's not a lot of explanation that makes much sense regarding the data under examination. It seems to me. And yet, I'd be happy to be shown otherwise on any of it. Its not really all that important to me to wonder whether Jesus lived. What is important to me is learning, trying to grasp reality, and other such things.
Go read Suetonius’ account of Tiberius’ life on Capri and then tell me what you think the facts are.
I'll be happy to. Thanks.
Because his life is not what makes him matter to Christians. His resurrection is what makes him matter to Christians.
They both matter. Both his life and resurrection matter to Christians, from my observations. This isn't an either/or thing. Some might say, and I believe many Christians have told me this, his resurrection would be absolutely meaningless without his life. Talk to a Christian about their beliefs and they are bound to quote the teachings of his life. His life largely matters. I don't understand this attempted dichotomy. Oddly many scholars seem to treat the recordings of his life as mythology anyway. So in the sense of history, what was his life? It was something other than Mark tells us, apparently, if it ever was. He could have been a million miles away from the character that was written about by diaspora Jewish writers. If that were the case, why would we be left with a dogmatic assumption telling everyone, "he lived...he really lived"? It has to come down to a level of probability if you ask me.
o the contrary Jesus like other people of his age was credited with miracles. Some of these other people are just as poorly attested (or more poorly) as Jesus, and others are much better documented. The miracle stories are not the criterion that makes them more or less likely to have lived. The evidence for their lives is. Honi the Circle Drawer is less well attested than Jesus. Very few people question his existence. Motivated reasoning is what makes people question the existence of Jesus.
This is a good point, kish. I agree. It doesn't make a whole lot of difference if miracle stories are attached to some person. I'd say theres far more to consider. When we think about past characters, the thing that drives people to want to know if that person in question existed is motivated. Tons believe in Jesus. There is little doubt the reason why anyone would take such a scrutinizing view of whether Jesus lived is because many dogmatically claim it's all Him or your done for. Why not spend some energy researching him with such skepticism? I'll continue to catch myself up on scholarship as a past time regarding Jesus' studies for the time being. I like it. I find it fascinating...and obviously not just Carrier. And I think there are plenty of interesting points to consider in the threads I've brought up on this issue. And I've enjoyed the discussion, outside the vitriol.
It's been interesting to be alone on some points of contention. I'm normally an agreeable person as I walk my daily walk. I find myself agreeing to some degree with responses people have given me, but I also find myself disagreeing on quite a few things. As an agreeable person I'd normally just zip the lip and let others discuss things. But, on this board, I'm happy to discuss ideas a little more freely. i suppose on this it's causing my credibility to take a hit for some reason. I can't see why. I'm dopey, perhaps. But I'm trying and I'm trying to be honest. That matters to me.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos