Does this sound like someone we know?

[Kishkumen]

Why is that?

- Doc

Why do I think she is the most important?

[Marcus]

I can see the source of frustration, but then I think of the positive influence that Lindsay Hansen Park has. The question I have is how she can be so important and yet those complaining of the ex-Mo patriarchy miss her entirely. She strikes me as being the single most important and influential post-Mormon person of all.

Why is that?

- Doc

I like her too. Here's a reddit post that quotes her, to give you an idea of her style:

[title] Lindsay Hansen Park expresses her frustration with “bridge-building” as a result of recent visits from “rude” missionaries. (self.Mormon)

submitted 7 months ago by devilsravioliInspiration.

From [LHP's] Twitter on 5/12/2023 (link).

I want to talk about bridge-building with people you disagree with, using a recent experience with LDS missionaries who came to my house. Hopple in:

As many know, I'm a member of record but I also don't attend for reasons too various to name here. Still, it's my heritage, culture and identity. Mormonism has always been an important part of who I am, which is why, when the missionaries come over, I always let them in.

I've gone through several iterations of companionships in the last few years. We usually let the missionaries come in, give them root-beer and cookies and we talk about music or video games.

I know how hard missions can be for these kids. I often say exmo reddit is a boneyard for missionary trauma. I've spent over a decade in faith crises spaces and missionary trauma is a huge part of people's stories. Missions are demanding and rigorous by design.

I didn't attend an LDS mission (got temple married instead) but I was part of the culture that pressured young men of my generation to go and shamed them when they didn't.

Which is why, when the missionaries come over- we are kind to them. I try to let them just be kids for a hot sec. I've talked to lovely groups of Elders and Sisters over the years. Lots of good experiences. The following recent experience was not one of those.

I want to acknowledge that I know these kids are barely grown. There is immense pressure, expectation and reward attached to missions. They might have "chose" this, but only in the way anyone chooses the inexporable.

When the new companionship showed up at our doorstep, we invited them in. We had a brief chat and they asked if they could talk to my 17 year-old son. (My son was blessed, but never baptized and for this reason, he's still on the records of the church.)

I had never had the missionaries ask to speak to him before and thought this might be a good chance for him to practice boundaries around these conversations.

But I was unprepared for what happened next.

My son agreed to talk with them. I imagined that it would be a courteous, mutual discussion like we'd had in the past. They'd ask him, (the stalwart atheist), if he was interested. He'd say no, and then we'd drink rootbeer. But that is not what happened. We got a blitz instead.

Next thing I know, we're in the midst of the first discussion. It happened fast. I've heard missionary pitches many times before, but this was my first time, sitting on the other side, trying to understand this from my son's perspective. It was not a good experience.

I'm sad to say that it took me having to experience this with my mama-bear eyes, for me to understand just how inappropriate LDS missionaries can be. I've always tried to hold space for the impossible position we put our youth in.

But this was a conversation that wasn't one. It was a manipulative script that didn't allow my son to say no. It was guided questions that looked like "agency" but really just incentivized compliance. It was bad manners. It was condescending. It was rude.

There was no mutual curiosity and it was clear that our opinions not only weren't wanted, but we weren't going to be able to offer them. "Questions" weren't really those and saying no wasn't always offered without being combative.

They got him to "commit" to several things, including a second discussion. When they left, I was sort of shocked. I said, "Are you really curious about this? Are you interested in becoming a practicing Mormon?"

He said, "No, mom. Haha, never. I was just being nice to them." He told me it seemed like they really wanted this and he wanted to show them respect by taking their ideas as seriously as they did. He was being polite.

For my part, I was kind of stunned. The discussion had been so rote, so pushy, and frankly- offensive. "Did I push back enough on harmful things? Was I too rude? I don't want to be labeled as an "angry apostate." It triggered a lot inside me that's been dormant.

At one point they told us that the tl;dr of the Book of Mormon was a story about two groups: the Nephites and the Lamanites and that all we "need to know is that Lamanites are the bad guys." To which I said to my son, "Lamanites are brown people." The Elder smiling, said, "yes."

There were other really egregious things said that made me embarrassed for them and furious that they are still being propagated. But still, as our culture raised us- during the first discussion, my pushback was polite and too gentle. My son was compliant.

For the second discussion, we were more prepared. My son was polite and firm in telling them that he did try to pray and ask those questions, but he didn't have their promised result. They tried to ask him to try again and again he declined.

I let him say his no's and when it was clear they weren't going to accept them, I stepped in. Momma-bear broke the polite rules and I told them we weren't interested, they were always welcome to come have conversations, but I expected future ones to be equitable.

I ended that I had no intention of ever returning to activity because the church's stance on LGBT issues was unacceptable. Out of empathy for their mommas that sent them out this way, I won't tell you how the rest of that conversation went, but these boys need manners.

I've been reflecting on it all week. My brand has always been, "there's more than one way to Mormon." I have tried to argue for pluralism in a community that works really hard against it. I believe in bridge-building. It's essential for all of us.

But bridge-building has to be mutual. That's the lesson I was reminded of. We hear a lot of talk about "both sides" these days. I'm a believer in bringing people together. But it has to be relational. There has to be mutual curiosity.

Talking with "both sides" is essential, hard work. I know this because I grew up with extremely binary thinking. I've seen the damage it does. I will always try to approach my community with the same patience I was afforded when I said and thought ignorance things.

There are so many good Mormon people that believe bad doctrine because they weren't given choices otherwise. I will always try to stand as a person to offer the choice otherwise, since I'm grateful it was afforded to me.

But the fact that in 2023 representatives of the #LDS are going door to door and spouting unblushing white supremacy and LGBT division is unacceptable.

Apostate politics hurt families in my community, and it would be easy to demonize these young men. I am trying to hold space where I can. It's sad though that these young men were taught not only ignorant things, but that teaching them is brave and good. That's a community problem.

Sometimes I just get embarrassed by where I come from.

This was one of those times.

Last tweet: I’m annoyed that I get accused of being too hard on Mormons when I have to endure this stuff b/c of where I situate. We showed grace that wasn’t reciprocated. I hope LDS can update the cultural incentives and ask: What is owed to those who believe differently?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Mormon/comment ... ustration/

Very non-rosebuddish, no? : D

[Res Ipsa]

I like her style.

[honorentheos]

Very non-rosebuddish, no? : D

Solid. Thanks for sharing and pointing her out.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Interesting. Thanks, Marcus.

- Doc

[drumdude]

I can see the source of frustration, but then I think of the positive influence that Lindsay Hansen Park has. The question I have is how she can be so important and yet those complaining of the ex-Mo patriarchy miss her entirely. She strikes me as being the single most important and influential post-Mormon person of all.

My guess is they miss her because she creates the opposite of drama. She creates space and understanding and builds bridges between communities. That isn’t attention grabbing like John Dehlin giving an angry post-excommunication speech is.

[malkie]

Since we're talking about Lindsay, let me add a little personal anecdote about what she is like as an in real life person.

Several years ago I exchanged a couple of messages with Lindsay - nothing special, just me looking for information about Sunstone conferences.

About 6 months later I brought my TBM wife to a conference. Lindsay was at the registration table handing out badges etc. When I gave her my name, she jumped up from her chair, came around from behind the table, and said: "So you're malkie - and you must be Mrs. malkie! Welcome. Let me know if you need anything.", and she gave us both big hugs.

Mrs. malkie asked me who that was, and how did she know me. I told her that Lindsay was the Managing Director of Sunstone, and that we had only had a couple of short online conversations - nothing more. She was bowled over by the personal and enthusiastic welcome. We have both been LHP fanboy/fangirl since then. It's hard not to love someone like that.

[huckelberry]

I think of ex-Mormon community as a temporary stop-over that some people need to help them transition from Mormonism to whatever comes next. High demand groups, including some religious groups, tend to become central to one's sense of identity and community. Losing that can be painful and disorienting for some folks. High demand groups tend to have organized groups of former members because the process of leaving can be difficult. You a find groups for former JW's, Assemblies of God, high demand evangelical groups, scientology, etc.

But it's hard to form a group that is stable over time around something its members used to be. Groups naturally coalesce around common interests -- not former common interests. So, folks tend to move away from groups of "formers" to groups built around some kind of common interest. I think it's the nature of the beast. I posted at RfM for several years, long ago in galaxy far, far away. I dropped in there recently, and didn't recognize most folks.

I think this group is kind of unique in that it's built mainly around relationships that have developed over the course of years. People seem to hang out here because they like to interact with the folks here regardless of former Mormon identity. I see it as a community of folks who like to hang out together, many of whom used to be Mormon, as opposed to an "ex-Mormon community."

Res Ipsa, Your comments make sense to me. A person leaving the LDS faith is going to experience confusion, uncertainty, shock, and a general sense of being in a foreign land. It is natural to want and need some contact with people in a similar situation. I certainly valued the contact and friendship with the few ex-believers I knew. When people voice criticism or complaints about the exmormon community I imagine something more developed and perhaps organized than anything I am familiar with. Well I suspect there is a bit of strawman target being drawn up sometimes.

There are of course the groups of people involved in study of the history and social function of Mormonism. It would be natural to see them as a sort of loose community. To be very very loose I imagine if I read or listen to some results of that from time to time I become a member of that community by extension.

If you leave the LDS church it never ceases to be a part of who you are, particularly if you grew up in it and have relatives involved in it. It is still family. So that explains much of why I find interest in participating here. But I do not think of it much as fighting it instead it is a common reference point shared by people to assist in thinking about a variety of things. The Mormon church may be peculiar in ways but it is an example of human communities and shares what it is with the rest of humanity. I find returning after years not considering it much to try and understand it better helps me understand myself and others a bit better.

Lindsey Park was brought up. I did not remember her so check, found material from her. She looks like my best friend’s younger sister (exmormon). Well the family looks like quite a few other Mormons. As if there is some sort of extended family similarity. Heck I see Philo and think he looks just enough like me to be some extended cousin. don't worry Philo it could be very extended, how many Mormons are genetically intertwined? Leave the belief and you are still family I guess.