Mormon apologists' simplistic and often wrong reading of history

[drumdude]

DS: "WWII is actually a glaring example of the evil and harm religions and its adherents can do."

Flat nonsense. Germany was a largely post-Christian nation by 1933. Nazism wasn't Christian.

I suppose it should be only natural that an apologist who has to defend the historicity of the Book of Mormon would have little regard for facts when trying to make an argument regarding more recent history.

For example, DP states boldly that “Germany was a largely post Christian nation by 1933” in spite of the facts that:

Among Germans:

Nazi Germany was an overwhelmingly Christian nation. A census in May 1939, six years into the Nazi era and after the annexation of mostly Catholic Austria and mostly Catholic Czechoslovakia into Germany, indicates that 54% of the population considered itself Protestant, 41% considered itself Catholic, 3.5% self-identified as Gottgläubig (lit. "believing in God"), and 1.5% as "atheist".

Hitler called a truce to the Church conflict with the outbreak of war, wanting to back away from policies which were likely to cause internal friction inside Germany. He decreed at the outset of war that "no further action should be taken against the Evangelical and Catholic Churches for the duration of the war". According to John Conway, "The Nazis had to reckon with the fact that, despite all of Rosenberg's efforts, only 5 percent of the population registered themselves at the 1930 census as no longer connected with Christian Churches."

Among the Nazi Party members:

Most of the 3 million Nazi Party members "still paid the Church taxes" and considered themselves Christians.

Assistance from the Churches:

The Catholic bishops asked their followers to support the war effort: "We appeal to the faithful to join in ardent prayer that God's providence may lead this war to blessed success for Fatherland and people." Likewise, the Evangelicals proclaimed: "We unite in this hour with our people in intercession for our Fuhrer and Reich, for all the armed forces, and for all who do their duty for the fatherland."

Even in the face of evidence of Nazi atrocities against Catholic priests and lay people in Poland, which were broadcast on Vatican Radio, German Catholic religious leaders continued to express their support for the Nazi war effort. They urged their Catholic followers to "fulfill their duty to the Fuhrer".

Rather than being a source of much resistance to Nazism:

Conway wrote that anti-church radical Reinhard Heydrich estimated in a report to Hitler dated October 1939, that the majority of Church people were supporting the war effort – although a few "well known agitators among the pastors needed to be dealt with".

Finally, as Christopher Hitchens pointed out, religion was a ready-made source of credulity that Fascism and Communism could latch on to. Rather than abolish religion, these political movements could simply shift the population from one religion to another:

Several elements of Nazism were quasi-religious in nature. The cult of Hitler as the Führer, the "huge congregations, banners, sacred flames, processions, a style of popular and radical preaching, prayers-and-responses, memorials and funeral marches" have all been described by historians of esotericism such as Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke as "essential props for the cult of race and nation, the mission of Aryan Germany and her victory over her enemies." These different religious aspects of Nazism have led some scholars to consider Nazism, like communism, to be a kind of political religion.

If Mormon apologists get such recent history so wrong, why on earth would anyone trust that their crackpot ideas about Jews in the pre-Columbian Americas 2,600 years ago would be correct?

[Philo Sofee]

Excellent post. Your problem here is however that you have posted the evidence to refute the Mopologist assertion. Shame on you! They will now cackle about your entire lack of faith in their own faith promoting spin on history, something they have received witness of the Holy Ghost mind you! This is not nonsense history, this is Holy Ghost history you're messin' with......

[Physics Guy]

Naziism and communism might count as religions, but only by defining “religion” in a way that’s hard to distinguish from “organized activity that not everyone likes.”

Plenty of Nazis also called themselves Christians, and a lot more German Christians supported their country’s government when it was Nazi. The actual Nazi leadership and their ideology, however, were not Christian at all. If we’re going to call Hitler’s aggression and genocide Christian because many Christians went along with them, do we then call the Crusades non-Christian because many participants were only in it for the loot?

There’s a lot to be said against German Christianity’s failures to confront Naziism, but counting the aggression of Nazi Germany as an example of a Christian war doesn’t seem like an intelligent way to think about history.

[huckelberry]

Naziism and communism might count as religions, but only by defining “religion” in a way that’s hard to distinguish from “organized activity that not everyone likes.”

Plenty of Nazis also called themselves Christians, and a lot more German Christians supported their country’s government when it was Nazi. The actual Nazi leadership and their ideology, however, were not Christian at all. If we’re going to call Hitler’s aggression and genocide Christian because many Christians went along with them, do we then call the Crusades non-Christian because many participants were only in it for the loot?

There’s a lot to be said against German Christianity’s failures to confront Naziism, but counting the aggression of Nazi Germany as an example of a Christian war doesn’t seem like an intelligent way to think about history.

I can see drumdude's point about the inaccuracy of Mr. Peterson's comment. I would suspect that Peterson was thinking that Christian devotion had faded even if people still self-identified as Christian. That thought is only speculative and also involves an ambiguous distinction about devotion.

On the other hand, blaming WW2 on religion is rather like blaming it upon the existence of different groups of humans.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Someone can correct me, but I believe Hitler expressed a sort of pantheist conviction in Mein Kampf. He probably thought God was the universe itself, but a god nevertheless.

- Doc

[Gadianton]

Nazism was surprisingly Mormon in its cultural binding. The essence of being a good Mormon is very similar to the essence of being a good Nazi. The ends of the power may be different, and lets hope it stays that way, but the essence of the power is quite similar.

I came to believe this after watching the recent documentary on Netflix: Ordinary Men, The Forgotten Holocaust. It might be based on a book that came out 30 years ago.

After watching that documentary, I strongly considered a post on the subject, but then I didn't follow through. The documentary is only 58 minutes, and I highly recommend it. I especially recommend it to the folks at Sic et Non, who are desperately in need of introspection.

The main point of the documentary seemed to be that Nazi stereotypes are wrong. The typical Nazi wasn't anything like the typical hate-fueled neo-Nazi today, or even the more extreme Trump supporters who look forward to a Civil war that would justify putting a big gun in the back of their truck and then drive around shooting liberals.

It begins describing a unit of new police recruits led by Major Wilhelm Trapp in July of 1942. Trapp isn't a loud-mouth authoritarian demanding loyalty Trump and DeSantis style. He's a warm, fatherly personality, who himself wasn't aware of the order he was to give until the day before he gave it. The order, of course, was to shoot Jewish families at point-blank range. Trapp is as Jesus in Gethsemane, asking the Father to take the bitter cup from him; with tears streaming down his face and faltering voice. He doesn't want to do it. He's not looking forward to it. It's nevertheless, a sacred responsibility that he's been asked to perform. And he fully understands that his men may not be ready for the task. And in fact, it's entirely voluntary. Those who can't do it, may step away. As Trapp tearfully explains the sacred responsibility to his men, one officer does just that, he walks away; his lower ranking superior begins to berate him, but Trapp intervenes and shuts the lower-ranking officer down. This gives others the confidence to follow suit and about 12 drop out.

As a later commentator says, the essence of Nazism was "free will" combined with "coercion". Could it get more Mormon than that?

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Excellent post.

This false narrative that DCP continually pushes over at SeN is a very important article of faith for him. DCP refuses to admit that adherents of religion were capable of committing acts so incomprehensibly vast and evil. DCP will never address the issue that in WWII the horrible, inhumane atrocities were overwhelmingly committed by adherents of Christianity (Germany, Italy, etc) and adherents of Shinto (Japan).

An argument can be clearly made that adherents of religion completely failed the world. Religious adherents slaughtered and tortured men, women and children by the millions, conducted horrible experiments on people, forced millions into gas chambers, etc. Churches in those countries supported the War and encouraged their members to support the War.

DCP fails to understand that many people are skeptical of religion and its benefits when its adherents continue to do (and have done) so much evil. WWII is just one example. Just look at what is happening in the Middle East.

[drumdude]

Excellent post.

This false narrative that DCP continually pushes over at SeN is a very important article of faith for him. DCP refuses to admit that adherents of religion were capable of committing acts so incomprehensibly vast and evil. DCP will never address the issue that in WWII the horrible, inhumane atrocities were overwhelmingly committed by adherents of Christianity (Germany, Italy, etc) and adherents of Shinto (Japan).

An argument can be clearly made that adherents of religion completely failed the world. Religious adherents slaughtered and tortured men, women and children by the millions, conducted horrible experiments on people, forced millions into gas chambers, etc. Churches in those countries supported the War and encouraged their members to support the War.

DCP fails to understand that many people are skeptical of religion and its benefits when its adherents continue to do (and have done) so much evil. WWII is just one example. Just look at what is happening in the Middle East.

It’s also useful to point out that the secular democratic West was the hero of WWII. Rather than appeal to Christianity, or mysticism, or any religious tropes, the appeal was made that freedom above all was worth fighting for.

Churchill’s famous speech is illuminating for this, notice how little religious prose he uses:

Turning once again, and this time more generally, to the question of invasion, I would observe that there has never been a period in all these long centuries of which we boast when an absolute guarantee against invasion, still less against serious raids, could have been given to our people. In the days of Napoleon, of which I was speaking just now, the same wind which would have carried his transports across the Channel might have driven away the blockading fleet. There was always the chance, and it is that chance which has excited and befooled the imaginations of many Continental tyrants. Many are the tales that are told. We are assured that novel methods will be adopted, and when we see the originality of malice, the ingenuity of aggression, which our enemy displays, we may certainly prepare ourselves for every kind of novel stratagem and every kind of brutal and treacherous manœuvre. I think that no idea is so outlandish that it should not be considered and viewed with a searching, but at the same time, I hope, with a steady eye. We must never forget the solid assurances of sea power and those which belong to air power if it can be locally exercised.

I have, myself, full confidence that if all do their duty, if nothing is neglected, and if the best arrangements are made, as they are being made, we shall prove ourselves once more able to defend our island home, to ride out the storm of war, and to outlive the menace of tyranny, if necessary for years, if necessary alone. At any rate, that is what we are going to try to do. That is the resolve of His Majesty's Government – every man of them. That is the will of Parliament and the nation. The British Empire and the French Republic, linked together in their cause and in their need, will defend to the death their native soil, aiding each other like good comrades to the utmost of their strength.

Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender. And even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the Old.

[Philo Sofee]

Someone can correct me, but I believe Hitler expressed a sort of pantheist conviction in Mein Kampf. He probably thought God was the universe itself, but a god nevertheless.

- Doc

Gott mit uns was engraved on many belt buckles of the soldiers.....

[drumdude]

Shades made some very good arguments in the SeN comment section. How did DCP reply?

Zero argument, just ad hom attacks and doxxing:

This is not a hill to die on, [real name removed]. And semantic games won't cut it here.

Mere sophistry.

Rich coming from a man who runs a “journal” that deals exclusively in sophistry and semantic games.