Another false dilemma from DCP: Prophet or Fraud

[Shulem]

The text proves that Smith *claimed* to receive commandments. The text also proves that Smith *believed* in a deity. The formation of that text along with other published statements leads me to believe he believed he was commanded of God.

You have a touching faith in Smith's veracity.

Thank you.

[Nimrod]

Smith believed he was above the law. He was murdered for both his beliefs and his actions.

Cleverly put. In some sense, his acting as if he was above the law stemmed from his claims to authority as the prophet of a new dispensation. Of course we have no way of knowing whether he actually believed those claims himself, as opposed to finding them a really great way to live without working, receive adoration from crowds of devoted followers, justify whatever he felt like doing, and get access to the bodies of numerous young women.

But it was the illegal nature of the things he did (which would have been illegal if an atheist mayor of Nauvoo had done them) rather than what he may or may not have believed that got him killed. I think the word 'martyr' (from the Greek word for 'witness') is best reserved for its usual sense, in which it refers to people who are killed because they refuse to give up their religious beliefs. I don't think that can apply to Smith in the instance that we are discussing.

Well said.

[Shulem]

But it was the illegal nature of the things he did (which would have been illegal if an atheist mayor of Nauvoo had done them) rather than what he may or may not have believed that got him killed. I think the word 'martyr' (from the Greek word for 'witness') is best reserved for its usual sense, in which it refers to people who are killed because they refuse to give up their religious beliefs. I don't think that can apply to Smith in the instance that we are discussing.

Polygamy is illegal and was not a minor indiscretion but other matters were more explosive: The burning of the Nauvoo Expositor was the final straw and that act of violence on Smith's part was met with violence from the mob that murdered him at Carthage.

[Doctor Scratch]

Moroni: Here, Smith, take these plates. You won't use them for anything, and you can only show them to a few unconvincing witnesses before I take them away forever again, but you have to make a big point of claiming to have had them for a while.

Smith: Why?

Moroni: See, in the distant future there are going to be a few people who might fail to believe you're a fully genuine prophet, because they might find it more convenient to call you a good man who was a little confused. With your claim to golden plates on the record, though, that option will be off the table for them.

Smith: So they'll have no middle ground between calling me a prophet and calling me a liar?

Moroni: Exactly, and just because of these plates! That's why I lugged them all over the continent, and my forebears made and protected them through the centuries: all to make a sharper dilemma about your personal character for some wavering believers in the future.

Smith: Uh, Mr Moroni, sir ... I'm a serial sexual predator with a thing for underage girls. If the Lord wants it clear that I was not a good man, I've got that covered already. You didn't need to do all that with the plates.

Moroni: Oh. Well, you can also just drop the plates in a sack and swing it around as a weapon. On my way here from Mexico, back in the day, I took out a headless Lamanite, a rabid curelom, and more armadillos than I care to recall. Didn't bother to scratch it into the plates as a postscript, but it was epic. Ka-wham! You should practice a bit before you go today.

Awesome. You know, it's interesting that the more recent Mopologetics dealing with the plates has focused almost entirely on the witnesses' testimonies. But, of course, that's not the only issue. You also have to account for the ridiculous story about Moroni hauling these plates all the way up to New England from the Yucatan.

I remember in Sunday School years ago--I must have been 10 years old or so--I had a teacher who told us that Joseph Smith had the plates "but didn't show them to anyone!" and this was what proved that the story was true, she said. Even as a young kid, though, my reaction was, "No, it means that he was probably lying about the plates."

Meanwhile, I was struck by Dr. Peterson's remarkably violent language:

I told him that they were an “absolutely indigestible lump in the throats of people like yourself,” who wish to be friendly and sympathetic but who won’t believe. Prophet or fraud. The middle ground, if any exists at all, is very, very limited.

I wonder: did this person remain "a friend" in light of being told, in essence, that he can "choke on it"?

[Shulem]

Moroni: Exactly, and just because of these plates! That's why I lugged them all over the continent, and my forebears made and protected them through the centuries: all to make a sharper dilemma about your personal character for some wavering believers in the future.

You also have to account for the ridiculous story about Moroni hauling these plates all the way up to New England from the Yucatan.

I don't believe for a second that Joseph Smith imagined Moroni lugging plates thousands of miles across the continent. Smith was too methodical and measured to make a silly mistake like that. On the other hand, I easily accept Smith visualizing Moroni at Delmarva and concluding his life's mission in New York. I'm absolutely convinced that is exactly what Smith imagined. You could even say that I have a testimony of that and am happy to bear it. Hallelujah!

I so testify in the name of Joseph Smith,

Amen.

[Dr. Shades]

I told him that they were an “absolutely indigestible lump in the throats of people like yourself,” who wish to be friendly and sympathetic but who won’t believe. Prophet or fraud. The middle ground, if any exists at all, is very, very limited.

I wonder: did this person remain "a friend" in light of being told, in essence, that he can "choke on it"?

That's a good question, especially in light of the fact that it's very, very easy to be friendly and sympathetic to people whose religion one believes is fraudulent. We all, DCP included, do it for all people whose religions differ from our own. There need not be any middle ground, limited or otherwise.

[honorentheos]

At what point did Joseph Smith realize he was going to be killed? Wasn't it not until the mob was already storming Carthage Jail? I do not recall that his jailors or anyone else in the scenario from the time he fled to Montrose, Iowa until the time he jumped out the window and exclaimed he was a dead man either offered him the chance to live if he would recant all the Mormon B.S. or that they were calling him out to his face for having told the Mormon B.S. Rather, it was for Joseph Smith's breaking the marital laws and using his position as mayor of Nauvoo to have the Expositor destroyed. I don't see how a confession that the Mormon B.S. was all lies would have saved his life.

I was taught that he was martyred.

He was lynched.

[honorentheos]

This argument completely falls apart if you know the history of Automatic Writing.

History is easy to miswrite if you leave out the facts.

False dilemma or not, I think Joseph Smith was a fraud.

Agree. Whatever options available, I think Smith knowingly perpetrated a fraud. He lied to his father in law and eloped with Emma only to cheat on her, then invent religious justifications for that cheating. He couldn't read Egyptian yet pretended to be able to, and he never saw nor spoke with God nor angels. If Smith wasn't a fraud the word has no meaning.

[Dr. Shades]

Whatever options available, I think Smith knowingly perpetrated a fraud. He lied to his father in law and eloped with Emma only to cheat on her, then invent religious justifications for that cheating. He couldn't read Egyptian yet pretended to be able to, and he never saw nor spoke with God nor angels. If Smith wasn't a fraud the word has no meaning.

Boy, you said it. Asserting that Joseph Smith wasn't a fraud because he really thought he saw and spoke to the Angel Moroni, really thought he dug up golden plates, etc. is the same as asserting that Mark Hofmann wasn't a fraud because he really thought he discovered the documents he forged. . . and is just as likely.

[Gadianton]

I think you and H make good points, Shades. How different from Mark Hoffman would you say the Second Watson Letter fabrication was? Remember, the apologists wrote the Encyclopedia of Mormonism.