DiscussMormonism.com

Doctor Scratch wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:19 am

Marcus wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 15, 2024 11:32 pm

is he actually referring to sexual desire beyond that for his legal wife?

Let me be more specific. Peterson is discussing, and defining as normal and expected, Smith's sexual desire for his (multiple!!) other illegal and immoral conquests, beyond that of his wife to whom he was legally wed, correct?

That is correct, Marcus, and in fact he reiterated his position in a recent comment:

DCP wrote:I did not say, of course, that plural marriage was wholly or principally or even largely motivated by sexual desire. I did say, though, that there was probably sexual attraction in at least some of his plural marriages. I would hope that most marriages involve sexual attraction. They would, otherwise, tend to be rather desolate and sad.

Were there exceptions in Joseph's case? Almost certainly yes, and I should have noted that fact. If I recall correctly -- I don't have Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling ready to hand in order to check it right now -- the sexual flame at the plural marriage of Joseph Smith and Martha Bates Noble was burning at pretty much room temperature, if indeed even that.. And his marriage to Helen Mar Kimball seems to have been entered into for what a cynic -- not I -- would be inclined to call "dynastic" reasons. It may never have been consummated.

So he evidently thinks that a lack of sexual relations between Joseph Smith and 14-year-old Helen Mar Kimball would have been “desolate and sad.”

Peterson is in effect saying that of course people are attracted to the people they want to cheat on their spouse with, and that that is not only normal, but good.

This must be what happens when your religion requires such pretzel logic to justify past choices.

Sorry DCP, plural marriage exists when a legislative brach passes laws allowing it to take place and the executive branch signs it. If they don't pass it in legislation then it's an extra-legal marriage meaning a marriage the courts won't recognize. It's not legal or lawful. Great for the guys, lousy for the ladies. So Joseph Smith's extra legal marriages were likely from his sexual desire? I tend to agree. Bad news if it's in the USA. If the Church bought an Island off of South America they could make their own rules, but not here. I did notice he left the thirteen colonies / states pretty quickly as he didn't think the rules were right. He came back for a quick treasure hunt but then left without the desired goods.

A fascinating development, Doctor Scratch, thank you for bringing this important scholarship to our attention.

I think it was a smart move on the author's part. It's a good time to cash in on the "me-too" backlash from conservatives who also say that Donald Trump is "flawed" and "imperfect", and unfairly on trial for trying to hide his horndoggery. In fact, many will say he's a hero for his womanizing in an age of weak, liberal men. Since it's becoming all but impossible to contain the truth, now is the moment to lionize Smith's libido. His "BDE" as conservative women call it. "Yeah, so what? At least he wasn't gay, or trans, or one of these skinny vegetarian men who are overly sensitive. Smith was a red-blooded man's man who knew how to “F”!"

So yeah, I have to applaud the author for a strong play.

Would it be appropriate for LDS apologists to declare that Joseph's abundant sexual energy proved that it is all true and that members should continue their tithing efforts because of it?

Rosebud wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 16, 2024 1:49 am

Wow! A staunch mopologist admits the obvious!!!!!

Next questions, DCP, the challenge: What do you think it was like for the women and young girls to be objects of the Prophet’s sexual attraction? How do you think that experience might have affected them and their lives, especially considering the social power differences between them and the Prophet. Do you think God wanted them to experience all that for the good of the restored gospel?

Use all the intelligence, self-awareness and self-reflection you can muster then return and report.

(DCP has always been pretty entertaining to me.)

Great point. There’s a catch-22 with those marriages. Either Joseph deprived these young women of romantic life, or he groomed them for his own sexual gratification.

There’s no way Joseph comes out looking like anything other than a creep with the underage marriages..

James Buchanan, President of the United States prior to Lincoln, was a bachelor all his life. He did fall in love in his early years but the young woman passed leaving him completely broken. He served as a Senator, Secretary of State, and Minister to England, prior to be inaugurated in as President of the United States. One time he courted Dolly Madison's niece, who was 19 and he was much older. Dolly Madison was the former First Lady and married to one of the Founding Fathers who was also elected President, James Madison. James Buchanan decided that that she was too young and he being a lot older it didn't seem right. In a poem he sent her, he basically said she needed to find someone her own age as it would be best for her. Bonus point to James Buchanan.

In current news, if you male, 80 years old and own a professional sports team such as the Lakers, Mets, or Cowboys ...

Will conservative LDS historian admit it. "We covet what we see." Hannibal in Silence of the Lambs. Joseph coveted Fanny Alger Joseph coveted Zina Huntington who was married to another man. Martin Harris coveted his neighbor's wife D&C 19:25

Moksha wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 15, 2024 11:49 pm

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 15, 2024 11:34 pm

Dear me, that is definitely not what Elvis sung.

The word you may have been changed to I, but the preponderance is exact.

You ain't nothin' but a hound dog
cryin' all the time.
You ain't nothin' but a hound dog
cryin' all the time.
Well, you ain't never caught a rabbit
and you ain't no friend of mine.
////
this was my childhood introduction to rock and roll and is of greater significance to me than the discovery Joseph Smith had sexual desires. Who doesn't?

drumdude wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 16, 2024 4:36 am

There’s a catch-22 with those marriages. Either Joseph deprived these young women of romantic life, or he groomed them for his own sexual gratification.

There’s no way Joseph comes out looking like anything other than a creep with the underage marriages..

That’s it in a nutshell. In Mormonism marriage has always been about “raising seed”. So if Joseph didn’t try and “raise seed” with the Partridge Sisters and Helen Mar Kimball etc then he has knowingly taken away their eternal purpose.

It’s interesting to read D&C 132 through the lens that this was Joseph attempting to control his wife into letting him have multiple sexual partners, whilst ensuring sauce for the Gander wasn’t sauce for the Goose.

drumdude wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 16, 2024 4:36 am

Rosebud wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 16, 2024 1:49 am

Wow! A staunch mopologist admits the obvious!!!!!

Next questions, DCP, the challenge: What do you think it was like for the women and young girls to be objects of the Prophet’s sexual attraction? How do you think that experience might have affected them and their lives, especially considering the social power differences between them and the Prophet. Do you think God wanted them to experience all that for the good of the restored gospel?

Use all the intelligence, self-awareness and self-reflection you can muster then return and report.

(DCP has always been pretty entertaining to me.)

Great point. There’s a catch-22 with those marriages. Either Joseph deprived these young women of romantic life, or he groomed them for his own sexual gratification.

There’s no way Joseph comes out looking like anything other than a creep with the underage marriages..

Mormonism has deprived most all of us of a healthy sexual development, in my opinion. That goes for the peons in the pews and the top leadership. And it all started way back when…..

Out people have been living in this sexual cesspool for generations. DCP is probably only barely coming to this realization due to his own stunted development, having been swimming in Mormon waters all his life.

Life is soooooooo much healthier outside Mormonism.