Pissing on "Frenchy"'s Grave?; Or, a Case Study in Mopologetic Selfishness

[I Have Questions]

So I think that I’ll state here what I actually think about this question: No, Frenchy and Wanda hadn’t been sealed in a Latter-day Saint temple. But that doesn’t mean that they won’t see or know each other in the world of spirits. Absence of a temple sealing simply means that spouses are no longer married (“till death do us part,” after all) and that families aren’t organized any more as families. (But vicarious temple dealings can and will be offered to all who have gone on before us.) However, I’ve read hundreds upon hundreds of accounts of near-death experiences in which those who have entered into the next life have been met upon their arrival by previously deceased spouses and other family members. So I have absolutely no doubt that Frenchy was greeted by Wanda, and that they were reunited after their long separation. Which is wonderfully good news. And eventually, they will be offered the opportunity to have their marriage made eternal.

LOL. So he's happy, and finds it to be "wonderfully good news" that Frenchy and either Wife #1 or Wife #2 are going to be reunited, but he also understands that their marriage has essentially been dissolved. They're just friends or acquaintances, I guess? Their actual marriage relationship no longer counts?

That’s an interesting twist on LDS doctrine. So spouses are reunited after they die without the supposed necessity of joining the Church, without the supposed necessity of a temple ordinance, without the supposed necessity of a proxy temple ordinance. Families can be together forever, without Mormonism. Peterson just said so, and cited NDE’s as proof of that.

[Philo Sofee]

LOL. So he's happy, and finds it to be "wonderfully good news" that Frenchy and either Wife #1 or Wife #2 are going to be reunited, but he also understands that their marriage has essentially been dissolved. They're just friends or acquaintances, I guess? Their actual marriage relationship no longer counts?

That’s an interesting twist on LDS doctrine. So spouses are reunited after they die without the supposed necessity of joining the Church, without the supposed necessity of a temple ordinance, without the supposed necessity of a proxy temple ordinance. Families can be together forever, without Mormonism. Peterson just said so, and cited NDE’s as proof of that.

This entire thing looks to me more and more like none of them actually know anything about what will happen in the next life, presuming it exists. It's all been guess work, and it continues to be guess work. Are we married there? SURE! Erm, well, not if it isn't a priesthood marriage, you'll be single and alone. Er wait, Um yeah it would be a good idea to at least be able to see your wife and kids, so yeah you all can see each other from a distance and wave at each other, but no huggies or kissies for you UNTIL your work is done for you. It's all so ridiculous guessing.

[drumdude]

That’s an interesting twist on LDS doctrine. So spouses are reunited after they die without the supposed necessity of joining the Church, without the supposed necessity of a temple ordinance, without the supposed necessity of a proxy temple ordinance. Families can be together forever, without Mormonism. Peterson just said so, and cited NDE’s as proof of that.

This entire thing looks to me more and more like none of them actually know anything about what will happen in the next life, presuming it exists. It's all been guess work, and it continues to be guess work. Are we married there? SURE! Erm, well, not if it isn't a priesthood marriage, you'll be single and alone. Er wait, Um yeah it would be a good idea to at least be able to see your wife and kids, so yeah you all can see each other from a distance and wave at each other, but no huggies or kissies for you UNTIL your work is done for you. It's all so ridiculous guessing.

We went from Joseph telling mothers their babies would be infants on thrones to this.

[Gadianton]

But it *could*, of course, and that was the point of my OP: Dr. Peterson *could* have taken care of those "vicarious temple dealings." But he didn't. He was content, instead, to merely milk this story for personal gain, and for "clicks" on his blog. And yet, all along, he has believed that Frenchy and one of his wives have essentially had a "celestial divorce" inflicted upon them

It's hard to argue with this. He's got a very positive attitude about the gospel being true, I'll grant that, but then he seems to have this belief that "it will all work out" without any effort on his part. Perhaps he figures, as Mr. Barnum of the circus of old figured, that "there's a sucker born every minute," who will to do the heavy lifting as he sits back and enjoys a Diet Dr. Pepper. Other people will be the temple workers, the ones obsessively working on genealogy, the missionaries, ward janitors, or the volunteers at the cannery. Common folk are happy doing these mundane tasks, and that's good, because sophisticated people like him feel more comfortable travelling and pampering themselves, and justifying their idleness (in terms of express gospel duties) by their role as "influencers".

[Tom]

LOL. So he's happy, and finds it to be "wonderfully good news" that Frenchy and either Wife #1 or Wife #2 are going to be reunited, but he also understands that their marriage has essentially been dissolved. They're just friends or acquaintances, I guess? Their actual marriage relationship no longer counts?

That’s an interesting twist on LDS doctrine. So spouses are reunited after they die without the supposed necessity of joining the Church, without the supposed necessity of a temple ordinance, without the supposed necessity of a proxy temple ordinance. Families can be together forever, without Mormonism. Peterson just said so, and cited NDE’s as proof of that.

I am reminded of church members who purport to have acquired glimpses of the grandeur and glory of the plan of salvation, including pre-earth life and the afterlife, based on childhood readings of Nephi Anderson’s Added Upon. Who needs scriptures and prophets when you have the witnesses of hundreds upon hundreds of accounts of near-death experiences?

[Doctor Scratch]

But it *could*, of course, and that was the point of my OP: Dr. Peterson *could* have taken care of those "vicarious temple dealings." But he didn't. He was content, instead, to merely milk this story for personal gain, and for "clicks" on his blog. And yet, all along, he has believed that Frenchy and one of his wives have essentially had a "celestial divorce" inflicted upon them

It's hard to argue with this. He's got a very positive attitude about the gospel being true, I'll grant that, but then he seems to have this belief that "it will all work out" without any effort on his part. Perhaps he figures, as Mr. Barnum of the circus of old figured, that "there's a sucker born every minute," who will to do the heavy lifting as he sits back and enjoys a Diet Dr. Pepper. Other people will be the temple workers, the ones obsessively working on genealogy, the missionaries, ward janitors, or the volunteers at the cannery. Common folk are happy doing these mundane tasks, and that's good, because sophisticated people like him feel more comfortable travelling and pampering themselves, and justifying their idleness (in terms of express gospel duties) by their role as "influencers".

Indeed. And you know what is hilarious in all of this? He will *never*--not ever, in a million years (and let him prove me wrong!)--abandon his blogging/Mopologetics/busy travel itinerary in order to perform service for the Lord. You are quite right that he "justifies his idleness...by his role as an 'influencer": in fact he said that his principal excuse for avoiding a senior mission was that he was "too busy" with Interpreter! Really? What does he do with Interpreter, apart from attending the odd meeting once every month or two and announce articles on his blog? He is not involved in any of the actual editing of the journal. Whatever articles he himself contributes are often recycled material from years ago. So, is it the movie-making and fundraising, then? I rather doubt it: those things are largely handled by others as well. The bulk of what he does, per his own blog, is travel and leisure.

Meanwhile, he will never, ever, ever do a service mission precisely because *we* have been ragging on him about it. To sign up for a senior mission would be tantamount to "caving in to the critics"! Even now, he's probably choking back an angry lump in his throat, furious that we have him pegged yet again.

[Tom]

I must confess that Spencer W. Kimball’s piercing words nearly 50 years ago about the urgency of doing temple work have long haunted me. In my view, they should continue to haunt the daily thoughts and nocturnal dreams and inspire nightmares of every faithful Latter-day Saint:

The spirit world is full of spirits who are anxiously awaiting the performance of these earthly ordinances for them. . . .

[W]e as members of the Church . . . stand in jeopardy if we do not do our temple work. Much of our time is taken up with the mundane details of everyday living, which must be done, of course; but those who are members of His kingdom at this critical time should endeavor to give much time and effort to this important work. . . .

Some of us have had occasion to wait for someone or something for a minute, an hour, a day, a week, or even a year. Can you imagine how our progenitors must feel, some of whom have perhaps been waiting for decades and even centuries for the temple work to be done for them? I have tried, in my mind’s eye, to envision our progenitors who are anxiously waiting for those of us who are their descendants and are members of the Church on the earth to do our duty toward them. I have also thought what a dreadful feeling it would be for us to see them in the hereafter and have to acknowledge that we had not been as faithful as we should have been here on earth in performing these ordinances in their behalf.

“The Things of Eternity—Stand We in Jeopardy?” Ensign, Jan. 1977.

Could anyone be more crystal clear about what we should be doing and when we should be doing it?

In this connection, I am reminded that the signers of the Declaration of Independence and others were forced to wait for decades and even hundreds of years until President Woodruff did their temple work.

“Two weeks before I left St. George, the spirits of the dead gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them. Said they, ‘You have had the use of the Endowment House for a number of years, and yet nothing has ever been done for us. We laid the foundation of the government you now enjoy, and we never apostatized from it, but we remained true to it and were faithful to God.’

These were the signers of the Declaration of Independence [of the United States of America], and they waited on me for two days and two nights. …

“I straightway went into the baptismal font and called upon Brother McAllister to baptize me for the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and fifty other eminent men, making one hundred in all, including John Wesley, Columbus, and others.”

The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, ed. G. Homer Durham, 160–61.

Of course, many of these eminent men were not President Woodruff’s progenitors. Nevertheless, President Woodruff did not make excuses. He did the work.

[Rivendale]

Does it take more than once to stick?

In fact, the proxy baptisms for the Signers had been completed in stages by various people starting in Nauvoo and ending in 1876. John D. T. McAllister, who helped Woodruff in the temple, had even participated in doing some of the Signers’ work six years earlier.

[Tom]

Does it take more than once to stick?

In fact, the proxy baptisms for the Signers had been completed in stages by various people starting in Nauvoo and ending in 1876. John D. T. McAllister, who helped Woodruff in the temple, had even participated in doing some of the Signers’ work six years earlier.

Faith-demoting rumor. If not, “… on earth as it is in heaven.” My blessed great-great-grandfather, who spent his entire life in Weasel Gulch, Utah, got himself excommunicated and rebaptized several times. He wasn’t a model Saint. Based on my reading of dozens of accounts of near-death experiences from Latter-day Saints, I have absolutely no doubt the same thing happens in the spirit world.

[Gadianton]

...do with Interpreter, apart from attending the odd meeting once every month or two...

what about "supervising" filming projects strategically organized in New York? I hear it's beautiful country. I'll admit, if I had an all-expense trip paid to New York and all I had to do was spend a few hours here and there on the film set, I might go.

You know, what's next for Interpreter? Once the basic foundation story has been told, why not move on to the international story? Who were the great missionaries who got the work started in England, for instance? To tell that story, they'll need to film in England I guess!