Hello, Possums...My Final Exit from MD&D

[Craig Paxton]

It's been a long time since I last posted on the Discuss Mormonism board. I took a much-needed break from discussing Mormonism, but it seems it's a deeply ingrained topic that's hard to let go of, at least in my experience. By taking a break I hoped that I could somehow heal from my Mormon experience and some how move on with my life. After all, I left the church over 22 years ago, you would think I could just move on and leave it alone.

For months, my only discussions on Mormon-themed boards were occasional posts on the Mormon Stories Podcast Facebook page. After several months, when I felt my metaphorical blood pressure had finally lowered enough to engage in civil conversations with believing members of the church again, I took a bold step – at least for me. I shed my years-long anonymity as Craig Paxton and began posting on the Mormon Dialogue and Discussion board using my real name.

I mistakenly assumed that by abandoning my anonymity, I might encounter a more civil experience on that board. Over the years, I had posted there anonymously under various tags. Initially as Craig Paxton, who was promptly banned, then as Johnnie Cake, Aussie Boy and probably other's that I have long since forgotten about, but they all had one thing in common, they all eventually got banned.

I had hoped that with each new anonymous persona, I could be more compliant with their rules by being civil and respectful in the hope of building a bridge of understanding and be able to carry on a civil conversation regarding Mormon truth claims. I also felt that I was calming down and making progress despite having to conform to MD&D's extremely ridged rules of engagement and Calm's constantly annoying policing of them. I had high hopes posting under my real name. First, I thought that by being fully transparent, it would help me be more accountable for the words and subject matter I chose to post. I also naïvely believed that by being so open and transparent that the MD&D board members would be more respectful, fair minded, sympathetic and less arrogant in their cherished truth claims with me as well. That was dumb of me.

Ultimately my hopeful efforts at civil discussion failed. Yesterday, I was once again banned while using my real, fully transparent name. Why? Because I didn't provide a link to a site from which I had copied and pasted a list of quotes by LDS leaders from, even though the quotes were fully cited. I also pushed back against Calm's constant policing of my posts because: 1. She asserted that because the quotes came from a website critical of Mormonism (though the quotes themselves weren't critical) they should be somehow suspect or discounted, and 2. for implying that because I hadn't cited the source of my copy-paste, I was therefore a plagiarist for not providing proper citation. As if posting on MD&D meet the same standards as a doctrinal dissertation.

I had had enough of conformity and finally blew a gasket. In frustration, I finally said to myself, "F*** it" and called her out for her overbearing, never-checked policing of the board and her pedantic behavior.

Here is what I posted:

Calm you are being excessively pedantic on this message board. There I said it. I guess, I'm now banned. Screw it, Enjoy your Silo. What could have been a civil conversation on something I felt was an interesting observation has quickly become an exasperating attack for the sin of failing to list the source of a collection of quotes of LDS leaders I found via a simple google search.

But you've won. You have successfully disrupted the flow of the conversation, turning what could have been a lively and engaging exchange of ideas into a tedious nitpicking session of meeting your exacting standards for proper posting. Instead of focusing on the substance of my OP, you've put me on the defense, attacked my character and forced me to get bogged down in trivial details, detracting from the overall enjoyment of this conversation. You've Won, I give up.

You've sent your message loud and clear and I've received it. This board is not a safe place to ask questions or present subject matter unless it meets your exacting standard. Perhaps not your intent, but your stilted, painfully irritating need to dot every i and cross every t, creates a hostile atmosphere for many of the posters here and honestly it drive us away. It's exhausting. But perhaps that is you intent. You prefer homogeneity instead of a diverse platform of ideas and opinions. You seem to get more pleasure from the policing of this board than from creating an environment where a civil discussion and exchange of ideas can take place. You've created a board where people like myself feel hesitant to express ourselves freely for fear of being scrutinized and corrected at every turn over seemingly minuscule matters that are of over whelming importance to you.

For what its worth here is my advice for you, your annoying exactitude stifles honest and genuine expression. By driving folks like myself away, mind you I don't hide behind a wall of anonymity like everyone else here, you are diminishing the value of this community as a space for meaningful dialogue and mutual understanding. You are shrinking the idea gene pool and you know what that does to the over all health of your close-knit community. In essence, while attention to accuracy and precision is important, your obsession with it just results in souring the experience for everyone involved and if not for everyone, it has for me. Everyone else is afraid to tell you the truth for fear of being banned, but you are an annoying influence on this board and frankly my dear I just don't give a damn.

And as expected, all of the board members doubled down in their support of poor little Calm, many expressing their love and appreciation for Calm's rule keeping.

I don't blame MD&D, it's their board and their rules and I acknowledge that so much of what I perceived as petty rules just rubbed me the wrong way. It was like posting in an airtight, sealed box while wearing a straight jacket and in the end, I just needed some fresh air and be able to breathe. MD&D is a suffocating environment.

So my experiment and attempt at civil dialogue at MD&D is over. My attempt, though very flawed, is done. They can enjoy their silo of ideas and their mental inbreeding by patting themselves on their backs knowing that they have once again successfully ran yet another thought provoker away. Well done MD&D.

[Imwashingmypirate]

Aww. That sounds exhausting.

[drumdude]

The faithful LDS subreddit works the same way. They need to be treated with kid gloves lest someone there subjects their testimony to critical thought.

It’s a powerful sign that the religion is fragile if it can’t handle the most gentle, thoughtful, and carefully researched criticism.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

"Whoa there buddy! You've been banned because one or more of your posts violates my feelings and one of our vague and convulted rules. Our community may have enjoyed your posts and given you hundreds of upvotes, but I'm the secret moderator and was put in charge for some unknown reason and my decision is final." --- Calm or DCP (take your pick)

[Marcus]

To be fair, you started your md&d OP like this:

Here are just a few quotes that support the once traditional Plan of Salvation that Butler is now walking away from.

seemingly implying that the following section in a different font would be just quotes, which did have individual sources.

However, the full section in the different font, including words not inside the quotes, was actually from a source you did not include in your OP. Calm posted it later:

Spirit-children-and-planets


To clarify, here's a selection from your OP.
(all quotes in this post are from your op, and are credited to: https://www.mrm.org/spirit-children-and-planets.)

Words not attributed to the quotes you sourced are in blue, credit should have been given for the entire quote, sources and commentary, to the above mrm source:

“We educate ourselves in the secular field and in the spiritual field so that we may one day create worlds, people and govern them.” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 386).

In 2001 Henry B. Eyring repeated the key part of this quote in a Church Educational System (CES) fireside talk on Sunday, May 6, in Moscow, Idaho. His message was titled, “Drive for learning must have powerful spiritual component.” The quote was repeated not only in the LDS Church News, but also in the October 2002 Ensign. On the official LDS seminary website, Kimball’s quote was again cited by Mormon Apostle Richard G. Scott. In Mormonism, “seminary” is geared for high-school students.

“The real life we’re preparing for is eternal life. Secular knowledge has for us eternal significance. Our conviction is that God, our Heavenly Father, wants us to live the life that He does. We learn both the spiritual things and the secular things ‘so we may one day create worlds [and] people and govern them’ (Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 386).” (Henry B. Eyring)

“Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe. And the Lord has proved that he knows how to do it. I think he could make, or probably have us help make, worlds for all of us, for every one of us 225,000” (Spencer W. Kimball, “The Privilege of Holding the Priesthood,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 1975, p. 80. Quoted in Doctrine and Covenants Institute Student Manual).

A couple other examples:

On page 90 (chapter five) of the correlated manual titled Presidents of the Church Student Manual: Religion 345 (2004), under the subheading, “They Shall Organize Worlds and Rule Over Them,” it states:

“Only a short time before his death, President Snow...

Also

In his book Doctrinal Details of the Plan of Salvation (2005), Mormon educator David J. Ridges, who served 35 years with the Church Educational System, listed 44 true or false questions in what he called a “Plan of Salvation Pretest.” Question 31 (page 4) states “Those who receive exaltation will actually be making and peopling worlds of their own.” On page 13 he states that the answer is true, “President Brigham Young said, ‘After men...

The bolded headings you use also are a part of the mrm essay and should have been credited to that source.

Even on a discussion board, you should give credit when you quote.

It seemed a little disingenuous for you to say Calm's comments were "an exasperating attack for the sin of failing to list the source of a collection of quotes of LDS leaders I found via a simple google search," when the entire section, including quotes and their sources, commentary on the quotes and even headings, was from a single essay you easily could have credited when you posted the excerpt from it.

[Dr Exiled]

This is DP and he approves this banning!

[sock puppet]

To be fair, you started your md&d OP like this:

Here are just a few quotes that support the once traditional Plan of Salvation that Butler is now walking away from.

seemingly implying that the following section in a different font would be just quotes, which did have individual sources.

However, the full section in the different font, including words not inside the quotes, was actually from a source you did not include in your OP. Calm posted it later:

Spirit-children-and-planets


To clarify, here's a selection from your OP.
(all quotes in this post are from your op, and are credited to: https://www.mrm.org/spirit-children-and-planets.)

Words not attributed to the quotes you sourced are in blue, credit should have been given for the entire quote, sources and commentary, to the above mrm source:

“We educate ourselves in the secular field and in the spiritual field so that we may one day create worlds, people and govern them.” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 386).

In 2001 Henry B. Eyring repeated the key part of this quote in a Church Educational System (CES) fireside talk on Sunday, May 6, in Moscow, Idaho. His message was titled, “Drive for learning must have powerful spiritual component.” The quote was repeated not only in the LDS Church News, but also in the October 2002 Ensign. On the official LDS seminary website, Kimball’s quote was again cited by Mormon Apostle Richard G. Scott. In Mormonism, “seminary” is geared for high-school students.

“The real life we’re preparing for is eternal life. Secular knowledge has for us eternal significance. Our conviction is that God, our Heavenly Father, wants us to live the life that He does. We learn both the spiritual things and the secular things ‘so we may one day create worlds [and] people and govern them’ (Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 386).” (Henry B. Eyring)

“Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe. And the Lord has proved that he knows how to do it. I think he could make, or probably have us help make, worlds for all of us, for every one of us 225,000” (Spencer W. Kimball, “The Privilege of Holding the Priesthood,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 1975, p. 80. Quoted in Doctrine and Covenants Institute Student Manual).

A couple other examples:

On page 90 (chapter five) of the correlated manual titled Presidents of the Church Student Manual: Religion 345 (2004), under the subheading, “They Shall Organize Worlds and Rule Over Them,” it states:

“Only a short time before his death, President Snow...

Also

In his book Doctrinal Details of the Plan of Salvation (2005), Mormon educator David J. Ridges, who served 35 years with the Church Educational System, listed 44 true or false questions in what he called a “Plan of Salvation Pretest.” Question 31 (page 4) states “Those who receive exaltation will actually be making and peopling worlds of their own.” On page 13 he states that the answer is true, “President Brigham Young said, ‘After men...

The bolded headings you use also are a part of the mrm essay and should have been credited to that source.

Even on a discussion board, you should give credit when you quote.

It seemed a little disingenuous for you to say Calm's comments were "an exasperating attack for the sin of failing to list the source of a collection of quotes of LDS leaders I found via a simple google search," when the entire section, including quotes and their sources, commentary on the quotes and even headings, was from a single essay you easily could have credited when you posted the excerpt from it.

So, marcus, MD&D must have by that standard banned DCP within his first 10 posts, right?

[Marcus]

So, marcus, MD&D must have by that standard banned DCP within his first 10 posts, right?

Lol. I have yet to see any apologist even acknowledge Peterson's plagiarism. No one will defend him because his habit of plagiarism is indefensible.

[Craig Paxton]

To be fair, you started your md&d OP like this:

Here are just a few quotes that support the once traditional Plan of Salvation that Butler is now walking away from.

seemingly implying that the following section in a different font would be just quotes, which did have individual sources.

However, the full section in the different font, including words not inside the quotes, was actually from a source you did not include in your OP. Calm posted it later:

Spirit-children-and-planets


To clarify, here's a selection from your OP.
(all quotes in this post are from your op, and are credited to: https://www.mrm.org/spirit-children-and-planets.)

Words not attributed to the quotes you sourced are in blue, credit should have been given for the entire quote, sources and commentary, to the above mrm source:

“We educate ourselves in the secular field and in the spiritual field so that we may one day create worlds, people and govern them.” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 386).

In 2001 Henry B. Eyring repeated the key part of this quote in a Church Educational System (CES) fireside talk on Sunday, May 6, in Moscow, Idaho. His message was titled, “Drive for learning must have powerful spiritual component.” The quote was repeated not only in the LDS Church News, but also in the October 2002 Ensign. On the official LDS seminary website, Kimball’s quote was again cited by Mormon Apostle Richard G. Scott. In Mormonism, “seminary” is geared for high-school students.

“The real life we’re preparing for is eternal life. Secular knowledge has for us eternal significance. Our conviction is that God, our Heavenly Father, wants us to live the life that He does. We learn both the spiritual things and the secular things ‘so we may one day create worlds [and] people and govern them’ (Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 386).” (Henry B. Eyring)

“Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe. And the Lord has proved that he knows how to do it. I think he could make, or probably have us help make, worlds for all of us, for every one of us 225,000” (Spencer W. Kimball, “The Privilege of Holding the Priesthood,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 1975, p. 80. Quoted in Doctrine and Covenants Institute Student Manual).

A couple other examples:

On page 90 (chapter five) of the correlated manual titled Presidents of the Church Student Manual: Religion 345 (2004), under the subheading, “They Shall Organize Worlds and Rule Over Them,” it states:

“Only a short time before his death, President Snow...

Also

In his book Doctrinal Details of the Plan of Salvation (2005), Mormon educator David J. Ridges, who served 35 years with the Church Educational System, listed 44 true or false questions in what he called a “Plan of Salvation Pretest.” Question 31 (page 4) states “Those who receive exaltation will actually be making and peopling worlds of their own.” On page 13 he states that the answer is true, “President Brigham Young said, ‘After men...

The bolded headings you use also are a part of the mrm essay and should have been credited to that source.

Even on a discussion board, you should give credit when you quote.

It seemed a little disingenuous for you to say Calm's comments were "an exasperating attack for the sin of failing to list the source of a collection of quotes of LDS leaders I found via a simple google search," when the entire section, including quotes and their sources, commentary on the quotes and even headings, was from a single essay you easily could have credited when you posted the excerpt from it.

I guess I just see things differently. Life on a board is fast and furious, Did I fail to provide a link to the source of the quotes I cut and pasted, yes, I honestly didn't think that level of scrutiny was required. But the quotes each had a citation of their original source. When Calm called me out for failing to do so she did it in a manner that drew my ire in that she tried to discount the value of these LDS leader quotes by tainting them under the anti Mormon umbrella. Can a collection of quotes from LDS leaders even be anti Mormon? After that we were off to the races. So yes I saw it as a pedantic effort on her part to mirco manage me...and I don't micro manage very well.

As to your point that I didn't attribute or give credit to the bolded blue parts you have highlighted, frankly I didn't even notice them within the body of LDS quotes in my OP...so yes I'm guilty on failing to cite those parts...since I hadn't gone to the bother of reading each and every line in the cut and paste.

In all honesty. Your highlighting these portions in my OP is the first time I have even read those parts. That's no excuse, its just the truth. I went looking for quotes from LDS leaders to support my premise that the church and Butler have walked away from the once taught doctrine that we will create and inhabit worlds a.k.a. our own planets. I searched extensively through the church web site to no avail. It's been scrubbed. Then I did a google search and stumbled upon the site I cut and pasted from. I cut and pasted the quotes into my already prepared post and posted it.

[Canadiandude2]

I dunno what happened to the comment I just wrote so I’ll just say good for you, and yeah, I too started to rethink my relationship with the church recently.

My realization? Let the natural consequences happen. Only engage with apologists and TBM’s re: the church if it’s personally rewarding, and likely to be consequential for some achievable public good.