So we know the 'church' is a fraud, where does that leave...

[BeNotDeceived]

1. Repentance - how is it done if no one is qualified to oversee the process?

2. The Sacrament - did Christ ever declare it was to be a weekly thing and did Smith just make up the sacrament prayers like everything else? If not, where did he get the words from? How is the sacrament to be done, if at all?

3. Patriarchal blessings - millions have had this done and while most blessings are similar in nature, each has its own unique set of guidelines. Do the men giving these blessings actually believe deity is communicating with them and putting words into their minds? How would these men know if someone is from a certain tribe like Ephrain or Mannasseh. Are these declarations just guesses?

4. Priesthood authority - how can these corporate execs atop this gargantuan real estate corporation masquerasing as a religion actually propagate the notion of 'priesthood power and authority', expecting obedience and adulation when they know it's all a big ruse?

5. Mission calls - how can these same men continue to 'call' young men and women on missions to teach a narrative to investigators that they admitted 10 years ago in an essay buried on their own wesbite... isn't true???

6. Temple building - how and why do they continue to build temples when it's been proven membership is decreasing? 22 additional temples in the last 4 years but the # of sessions has decreased by 475 globally (2.5 per temple per day). Money-laundering? Profit from selling off land acquired around the temple after its value goes up? To create the facade of 'church' growth? All of the above?

Thanks in advance for any comments.

[Imwashingmypirate]

1: Repentance is taught among many religions and cultures. Perhaps taking different forms but generally humans have a sense of ethics and remorse and forgiveness regardless of religion. Catholics teach repentance. Not purely Mormon. I feel that we can repent without confession to another human. I feel confession to the universe, to God, to a higher being and maybe to those you have wronged has perhaps more impact on the soul than confessing to another sinner. I think it is harder to admit in prayer that you have sinned than to admit to another person. But this is just my thoughts.

2: again the sacrament is not purely Mormon. Many Christians partake of sacramant, communion. Similar things. Not all do it every week. The prayer is not too dissimilar to what is taught to have been said by jesus at the last supper. Mormons repeat the prayer if said wrong to give it a sense of witchcraftery. Being anal for the sake of it.

3: witchcraftery! They say what enters their mind based on what they hear over and over in the church. If they can't think of a tribe then they say Ephraim.

4: a lot of religious sects have a sense of patriarchal energy. This isn't unique to Mormons. They just have a name for it. They are comfortable flaunting it lol.

5: lots of sects have missions but may have different names. Pilgrimages. Not just Mormon. And the kids going on missions haven't read the internet "antimormon literature" you are referring to. They are going because it's 2 years exploring (until they realise it isn't ), because their family want and expect them to, because they believe and want to spread the gospel, because they want to be an RM for their future spouse... Lots of reasons.

6: maybe richer people are Mormons now? I don't think the decrease is significant enough to make much difference. They probably just reposition their outgoings. They also probably have established ways and means to cheaper construction and workers and so on. Also a lot of people go to church but don't pay tithes before they eventually stop going. Maybe they are up to mischief I don't know...

[huckelberry]

Two thoughts, first I think it very likely the leaders of the church remain convinced that it is true. People believe things like that.

Why more temples? I have been puzzled by that but have had a thought. I have recently been very puzzled by peoples reaction to Peterson's attitude towards senior mission, an attitude that seems reasonable and unremarkable to me. I have been even more baffled by peoples reaction to the Frenchy's grave affair. Again Peterson's approach seems reasonable and unremarkable to me. It had not crossed my mind that work for the dead was some sort of emergency. But I am thinking of the fact that when I was an active member the nearest temple was some 600 miles away. I never had occasion to participate in baptism for the dead and felt no pressure to do so. Yet many people here seem to understand it as a pressing obligation. There are many more temples now which would facilitate the sense of obligation to go over and over and over again. It is ok to me that I missed all that but I suspect that the increased participation now has some effect of keeping people closer in line.Believing leadership would've course view that as a valid investment.

[huckelberry]

5. Mission calls - how can these same men continue to 'call' young men and women on missions to teach a narrative to investigators that they admitted 10 years ago in an essay buried on their own wesbite... isn't true???

What does this refer to? Maybe the rock in the hat? Hard to see as a big deal. A million believers shrug their shoulders about that.

[Fence Sitter]

6. Temple building - how and why do they continue to build temples when it's been proven membership is decreasing?

I am sure their numbers show that activity rates and tithing contributions are higher in areas where a temple is accessible.

[Res Ipsa]

6. Temple building - how and why do they continue to build temples when it's been proven membership is decreasing?

I am sure their numbers show that activity rates and tithing contributions are higher in areas where a temple is accessible.

That could very well be true. I was thinking a combination of spending some of that accumulated wealth and Field of Dreams.

[drumdude]

There are some signs that membership is ticking back up.

It may be wishful thinking to believe that people as a whole will continue getting smarter and rejecting ridiculous stories like Mormonism. It’s just as possible that people fall into misinformation more now that internet propaganda is everywhere.

The Russians are great examples of just how effective a well funded organization can be at manipulating populations of people. The Mormon church is doing everything it can to share that success.

[toon]

1. Repentance - how is it done if no one is qualified to oversee the process?

2. The Sacrament - did Christ ever declare it was to be a weekly thing and did Smith just make up the sacrament prayers like everything else? If not, where did he get the words from? How is the sacrament to be done, if at all?

3. Patriarchal blessings - millions have had this done and while most blessings are similar in nature, each has its own unique set of guidelines. Do the men giving these blessings actually believe deity is communicating with them and putting words into their minds? How would these men know if someone is from a certain tribe like Ephrain or Mannasseh. Are these declarations just guesses?

4. Priesthood authority - how can these corporate execs atop this gargantuan real estate corporation masquerasing as a religion actually propagate the notion of 'priesthood power and authority', expecting obedience and adulation when they know it's all a big ruse?

5. Mission calls - how can these same men continue to 'call' young men and women on missions to teach a narrative to investigators that they admitted 10 years ago in an essay buried on their own wesbite... isn't true???

6. Temple building - how and why do they continue to build temples when it's been proven membership is decreasing? 22 additional temples in the last 4 years but the # of sessions has decreased by 475 globally (2.5 per temple per day). Money-laundering? Profit from selling off land acquired around the temple after its value goes up? To create the facade of 'church' growth? All of the above?

Thanks in advance for any comments.

As someone who no longer believes:

1. Repentance. Irrelevant to the extent that there's any supernatural meaning or effect. It may have some value in a mental, emotional, psychological or social sense.

2. Sacrament. Irrelevant. Except to the extent that ritual in itself may provide some non-supernatural meaning or benefit.

3. Patrioarchal blessings. Meaningless for the most part. Perhaps some wise guidance, but mostly rote bs.

4. Priesthood authority. Doesn't impact me. It's perhaps sad that people defer to it, sometimes to their detriment, when it really doesn't carry much non-symbolic meaning. But I'm not going to concern myself too much with that.

5. Mission calls. Don't care.

6. Temples. Don't care. Not my money. Yes, it's arguable a problem that people with people making donations to support this and other things, but again, it's no longer my issue. While I care about people being taken advantage of, the church in this regard is small potatoes.

[Kishkumen]

The LDS Church is not a fraud. It is an exorbitantly expensive social club with an expensive entrance fee: 10% of your income for life. Fortunately, they use an honor system to monitor follow through on that commitment.

[BeNotDeceived]

Thanks for the replies all.

Kishkumen, it is a fraud as a religion. But then all religion is a fraud on humanity and so in what context is it a fraud?