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These are thoughts started by an exchange in the Book of Mormon thread lost in its multiplying subjects.

Marcus wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 25, 2024 7:13 am

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 25, 2024 5:07 am

Marcus, thanks for the clarification. I admit I would hear that as counsel instead of commandment thought those are closely related I suppose. Spring of 1967 was the last time I went to an LDS church service. (with the exception of a few funerals in more recent years) I have heard in a general way that the church increased emphasis on reading the Book of Mormon in the years after I left. (I had parents and siblings who remained active in the church.)

I see your point, but it wasn't treated as just counsel in my family. My Dad was bishop from when I was 8 until I went to college, and my Mom was even more devout. (And she loved Harold B. Lee. I still remember finding her in tears the day he passed away.) When a prophet said things like that, they took it seriously, and instituted measures to make it happen. We started reading scriptures as a family in the early morning every day, and ended with family prayer on our knees. (And not sitting down on your behind, but sitting up tall on your knees, out of RESPECT.)

I was suprised how foreign this sounded to me. I find on reflection that Marcus's experience is likely closer to most Mormons than mine. I remember occasional comments about some LDS were iron rod followers and others more freely followed general principals. (was liahona the term?) Perhaps my memory is telling me that this distinction was made by a few more liberal folks. I realize my family was a bit different. Both parents from Salt Lake ,my mother was old LDS family, my father a convert who probably always had mixed thoughts about the church. They did not give me a hard time for leaving the church but respected my personal search. I am sure my mother always hoped for my return.

I really do not mean to try and blow my horn but to explain I thought of the fact there is a picture of me at age three sitting on a sofa next to Wayne Booth. That didn't make me smarter but it illustrates influence.
from Wikipedia.

Wayne Clayson Booth (February 22, 1921, in American Fork, Utah – October 10, 2005, in Chicago, Illinois) was an American literary critic and rhetorician. He was the George M. Pullman Distinguished Service Professor Emeritus in English Language & Literature and the College at the University of Chicago. His work followed largely from the Chicago school of literary criticism.
Life

Booth was born in Utah of Latter-day Saint parents, Wayne Chipman Booth and Lillian Clayson Booth. The older Booth died in 1927, when young Wayne was six years old.[1] Booth graduated from American Fork High School in 1938.[2] He was educated at Brigham Young University and the University of Chicago. He taught English at Haverford College and Earlham College before moving back to the University of Chicago. He maintained his membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints throughout his life, but took the position that many religions were equally acceptable and sufficient.[3] He was a member of both the American Philosophical Society and the American Academy of Arts and Sciences.[4][5]

Of course there are. But I bet they are increasingly uncomfortable at church.

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 26, 2024 10:00 pm

These are thoughts started by an exchange in the Book of Mormon thread lost in its multiplying subjects.

Marcus wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 25, 2024 7:13 am

I see your point, but it wasn't treated as just counsel in my family. My Dad was bishop from when I was 8 until I went to college, and my Mom was even more devout. (And she loved Harold B. Lee. I still remember finding her in tears the day he passed away.) When a prophet said things like that, they took it seriously, and instituted measures to make it happen. We started reading scriptures as a family in the early morning every day, and ended with family prayer on our knees. (And not sitting down on your behind, but sitting up tall on your knees, out of RESPECT.)

I was suprised how foreign this sounded to me. I find on reflection that Marcus's experience is likely closer to most Mormons than mine. I remember occasional comments about some LDS were iron rod followers and others more freely followed general principals. (was liahona the term?) Perhaps my memory is telling me that this distinction was made by a few more liberal folks. I realize my family was a bit different. Both parents from Salt Lake ,my mother was old LDS family, my father a convert who probably always had mixed thoughts about the church. They did not give me a hard time for leaving the church but respected my personal search. I am sure my mother always hoped for my return...

Lucky you. I think how I grew up was also influenced by literally everyone in my family being LDS for at least 7 generations back, and being surrounded by so many other Mormons that not until junior high school and high school did actually I meet people or have friends who were not LDS.

When I wanted to leave the cult, the result was despicable levels of shaming by the people closest to me, and by a divide that lasts to this day, some 40 years later, where my non-LDS family is still considered 'lesser' by the hard core Mormon group. That's why I live thousands of miles away, and never entertained the idea of returning to that area. I literally had to restart my life as an orphan with no relatives, and so I faced forward and did my best.

Decades later, I found that my father, after he found out I was no longer practicing Mormonism, told every relative I had that I said I never wanted to hear from a Mormon again. This was an absolute lie, but they trusted this Mormon leader, and stayed away. Every sibling, aunt, uncle, cousin, great-aunt, grandparents, and second cousins I had relationships with suddenly disappeared from my life. It was a horrific experience. His behavior was shameful. Thankfully, I now have relationships with various relatives who, when I told them I never said that, were aghast that they had taken his word for it. Also, more than half my siblings are, now, no longer LDS and my relationships with them are healthy and strong.

So, while there were aspects of growing up that were very disciplined, as I was intending to show in my example, it was discipline within the context of a cult that frequently treats people who leave shamefully and despicably.

I'm glad you did not experience that. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

As a bookend to the story, I now have grown children, all of whom were raised outside the influence of this cult. They are all happy, well educated, thoughtful, and hard-working good people who have the morals that people like mg and midgley think are impossible outside their cult. I also have a grandchild now! I have mentioned this before, but to recap, I consider it to be the greatest accomplishment of my life that I was able to raise my children outside of the cult, and put them on a better path.

We started reading scriptures as a family in the early morning every day, and ended with family prayer on our knees.

Every few years we did the same thing, mom and dad committed to daily reading and prayer, knowing it's supposed to be a half hour but no chance of it breaking ten minutes, and we'd do it for a few weeks and it would fizzle.

Decades later, I found that my father, after he found out I was no longer practicing Mormonism, told every relative I had that I said I never wanted to hear from a Mormon again

that's horrible, I don't think I remember that part of your story. No wonder you call it rightfully a cult. I was lucky that there was no equivalent shunning. I purposely limited my visits because of the intense pain it caused certain people knowing that I wouldn't be with them in the Celestial kingdom. I also limit visits because even though I don't say anything, I realize that my very presence when it's known that I "don't go to church" must put questions within younger minds.

Liberal or conservative, I think it’s difficult be an intellectual and a Mormon. No, I don’t consider myself an intellectual. But I don’t think that those who enjoy any kind of ‘life of the mind’ fare well in mormondom.

Marcus wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 26, 2024 10:56 pm

I have mentioned this before, but to recap, I consider it to be the greatest accomplishment of my life that I was able to raise my children outside of the cult, and put them on a better path.

Sadly, I’ve often thought the same thing, Marcus.

Eugene England was considered a Liberal Mormon. A conference speaker defined a liberal Mormon as someone without a testimony. Dialogue was a journal with any provocative articles. England England in a letter to me defined what he thought was a liberal Mormon.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ocA ... sp=sharing

Morley wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 27, 2024 12:51 am

Marcus wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 26, 2024 10:56 pm

I have mentioned this before, but to recap, I consider it to be the greatest accomplishment of my life that I was able to raise my children outside of the cult, and put them on a better path.

Sadly, I’ve often thought the same thing, Marcus.

I know, it's such a negative thing, but, so necessary.

I had a very close relative who at 18, didn't want to go on a mission. Parents kicked him out of their house, refused to pay for any schooling or housing, even though he had a college fund like all his siblings. One of my other relatives took him in or a while, but, the damage was done. He passed away under adverse circumstances. I directly fault his Mormon family, my relatives, for his death. They shunned him at a very vulnerable time, left him homeless and in effect an orphan as no "Mormons" would help. They treated him with contempt and disgust when he was barely an adult, simply because he was not willing to be an obedient Mormon. I was slightly older when it happened to me, and I had a few (a very few) more resources, so I was able to hang on, but I have never forgotten how badly this young man was treated. That's what some Mormons do, sadly. It is despicable.

hauslern wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 27, 2024 1:24 am

Eugene England was considered a Liberal Mormon. A conference speaker defined a liberal Mormon as someone without a testimony. Dialogue was a journal with any provocative articles. England England in a letter to me defined what he thought was a liberal Mormon.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ocA ... sp=sharing

Thank you for sharing that letter. Eugene England was a marvelous man. If anyone had reason to be offended it was him. Some of his essays were important to me back in the late eighties and early nineties when the s**t was hitting fan in my life relative to the gospel and the church. New Mormon History they called it. Not so new anymore.

A person can be a liberal and retain their testimony of the core truths of the gospel and the restoration. England was a model of doing that even though he was treated poorly by those that should have known/done better.

Regards,
MG

hauslern wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 27, 2024 1:24 am

Eugene England was considered a Liberal Mormon. A conference speaker defined a liberal Mormon as someone without a testimony. Dialogue was a journal with any provocative articles. England England in a letter to me defined what he thought was a liberal Mormon.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ocA ... sp=sharing

A far worse insult, though they are ignorant of it, is, a conservative Mormon is who who says "I know the church is true."