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Morley I enjoy this post and thought it could suggest discussion moving off topic from the thread first posted on.

Morley wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 09, 2024 12:40 am

I realize my post about Guinness in Dublin reads as dismissive of the LDS Church. It was not what I'd intended. I'm sure that attendance at the temple will uplift and gratify a great many Mormons. The Guinness in Dublin, however, is also a truly spiritual experience. I am not a fan of Guinness that I've had stateside--nor even that that I've drunk in London. Guinness apparently does not travel well, even to the rest of Ireland. A pint of Guinness in Dublin, however, is not to be missed.

This leads me to wonder: What is the dividing line between an aesthetic experience and a spiritual one? I believe MG would claim that they're vastly different. But what I would call my most spiritual experiences were in deserts, art galleries, or fly fishing--not in consecrated houses of worship.

Perhaps idea that peak spiritual experience can only be had in Mormonism's holy places is behind the drive for more temples? [I may not believe this, but I'm trying to extend a generous thought, here.]

I have wondered about the question perhaps all my life. it made me think of myself six years old walking across a farm field to a line of old trees and being thrilled by the light-filled splendor radiating through the world.

I do not think spiritual and aesthetic are single unified things. Perhaps they interrelate in multiple ways. In general I associate spiritual with a sense of harmony and hope not visions and sense of somebody there.

I had that same experience. I was about six and wandered into the yard of a house across the street and I remember the green of the plants filled me with awe. Trying to recapture that has been the difficult part....

I have had what I call transcendent experiences. Those that go beyond the ordinary or mundane. 'Caught up in the moment' is a phrase I use to describe them as well. They are usually very pleasant. I usually cannot replicate them for myself even by repeating the situation as best I can reconstruct it. They are quite fleeting and ephemeral. Nor do those I am with in the same setting, going through the same experience at the same time feel such as deeply or momentously. They are moments that are therefore quite personal, even beyond merely subjective. But, never have I ever...had such an experience via reading scripture or praying. I have not had any personage appear, nor any visage for that matter. I do not ascribe any importance for them even though I am glad to experience such from time to time--they make life a bit better. These moments are each quite ethereal too as I have no way of capturing them.

I do not call these momentary experiences 'spiritual' as that connotes something beyond what they are.

I believe these would be experiences of God’s common grace. A revelation of himself as described in Romans 1:20.

For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. Rom. 1:20a.

One of my moments like you both described was seeing the beauty and creativity in a leaf of a wandering Jew vine I had in a pot on my desk at work. I’ve realized over the years that even if I took a picture with a high quality camera, there is no way to capture an image that contains the absolute beauty of what I had seen.

msnobody wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 10, 2024 1:21 am

I believe these would be experiences of God’s common grace. A revelation of himself as described in Romans 1:20.

For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. Rom. 1:20a.

One of my moments like you both described was seeing the beauty and creativity in a leaf of a wandering Jew vine I had in a pot on my desk at work. I’ve realized over the years that even if I took a picture with a high quality camera, there is no way to capture an image that contains the absolute beauty of what I had seen.

Very interesting and lovely thought, msnobody.

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 09, 2024 8:47 pm

Morley I enjoy this post and thought it could suggest discussion moving off topic from the thread first posted on.

Morley wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 09, 2024 12:40 am

I realize my post about Guinness in Dublin reads as dismissive of the LDS Church. It was not what I'd intended. I'm sure that attendance at the temple will uplift and gratify a great many Mormons. The Guinness in Dublin, however, is also a truly spiritual experience. I am not a fan of Guinness that I've had stateside--nor even that that I've drunk in London. Guinness apparently does not travel well, even to the rest of Ireland. A pint of Guinness in Dublin, however, is not to be missed.

This leads me to wonder: What is the dividing line between an aesthetic experience and a spiritual one? I believe MG would claim that they're vastly different. But what I would call my most spiritual experiences were in deserts, art galleries, or fly fishing--not in consecrated houses of worship.

Perhaps idea that peak spiritual experience can only be had in Mormonism's holy places is behind the drive for more temples? [I may not believe this, but I'm trying to extend a generous thought, here.]

I have wondered about the question perhaps all my life. it made me think of myself six years old walking across a farm field to a line of old trees and being thrilled by the light-filled splendor radiating through the world.

I do not think spiritual and aesthetic are single unified things. Perhaps they interrelate in multiple ways. In general I associate spiritual with a sense of harmony and hope not visions and sense of somebody there.

Spirit/body duality vs. strict materialism has always been a fascination for me. If I was to choose materialism I would be looking strictly to brain function as being the source of spiritual experiences or what some refer to as ‘elevation’. Then I would go home, eat lunch, and not give it much more thought except for, “That was cool!”

On the other hand, if we are dual beings living in a material world and yet there is a supernatural element to everything around us that may not be experienced through the five senses, I would expect that our spirits can be ‘touched’ or touch that which we cannot see with our eyes or hear with our ears. And I would suspect that there are multitudes of ways and means by which this happens around the world throughout the breadth and depth of humanity and their unique and yet common experiences.

I’ve also had what seem to be inexplicable experiences that are really tough to put a finger on inasmuch as being able to describe them with language.

Except to say, “Well, that was cool!” or “That was interesting!”

Regards,
MG

On an old Terrestrial thread, Philo Sofee posed the question: What is spiritual? I hope my old reply will work to answer the question posed in this new OP.

What is Spiritual?

Spiritual is what happens when leave your books, your bills, your worries and your concerns, and all the trappings of the material world behind. It is cellular, systemic and it is transcendent. Spiritual is what you drink in with the roots of your senses and the feelings of exhilaration, delight, and wonderment that fill you up.

It's when you walk into the mountains and suddenly see a falcon soaring overhead and wish that you could do it. It's when you come upon a field of Indian Paintbrush, Lamberts Loco, Lupine, Pentstemon, and if you're lucky, spicy blue Columbine planted by no one and feel like it exists just for you. It's the sound that the wind makes when it rushes through the Aspens in Fall. It's the sweet smell of pines when the sun hits them.

It's sitting on the beach after the crowds go home. Where the only sounds you hear are the sounds of the waves and gulls looking for left overs and the only smell is the smell of salt. It's when you immerse your body in the ocean and baptize yourself in it's waters. It's when you walk along the shoreline and the excitement you feel when the ocean delivers it's treasures right to your feet, and you stuff your pockets full of them to take home so you never forget the fullness of the experience.

It's when you stand outside at night far away from city lights and look up. It's that moment when you forget what stars are made of and the sight of the Milky Way takes your breath away and you stand there for hours waiting for the next meteor to race across the night sky again. It's when you wait for August to come so you can see the Perseid Meteor Shower because you know you're going to get the show of your life and how you feel when you get it.

It's the anticipation of the waiting game that begins when the first snows come and put Earth to sleep. It's how you drive down a country road on what feels like the coldest most desolate night of the year and your eyes light up when you catch sight of the Northern Lights dancing on the horizon. It's how you wait as patiently as you can for Earth to wake up again and the exhilarating sense of hope you feel when you see the snow melt to reveal the greened landscape that you waited so long for.

Spiritual is what you take in with your senses and lands in the place where your heart and your mind meet, to grow your soul.

Spiritual is the feeling you have when lyou ook into the sparkling blue eyes of a little girl and being determined to give her all of these things before you leave because you know you will leave. To put her in dirt, in water, to let her run wild in the forest, to show her how to plant seeds, smell trees and examine sea shells, to know the birds by their calls and how to tell what they eat by their beaks and where they live, that wildflowers planted by no one have names, and teach her remember to always look up until she does it without thinking. Because you know that if she has that, you have given her everything she needs to grow her soul.

It's a sense that something is bigger than you are.

And it feels like you feel when you see this:

.

Thank you, Jersey Girl. That was simply stunning.

MG 2.0 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 10, 2024 4:04 pm

Spirit/body duality vs. strict materialism has always been a fascination for me. If I was to choose materialism I would be looking strictly to brain function as being the source of spiritual experiences or what some refer to as ‘elevation’. Then I would go home, eat lunch, and not give it much more thought except for, “That was cool!”

Really? So, if you were looking strictly to brain function as being the source of the emotional sensations you felt when attending the birth of your child, you’d go home after the birth, eat lunch, and not give it much more thought except to think it was cool?

You think people who don’t believe in the supernatural attend the birth of their children and then go home, eat lunch, and not give it much more thought than to think it was cool?

Speaking of spirituality, why are all the Utah prayers for moisture being answered elsewhere? Was a backlog of prayers responsible for the water dumped by Hurricanes Helene and Milton?