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In his October 1984 GC talk, Ronald Poelman originally said: “As individually and collectively we increase our knowledge, acceptance and application of gospel principles, we become less dependent on Church programs. Our lives become gospel centered.” But "The Church" apparatus had him later change it (for the video tape to be released and for Ensign printing) to “As individually and collectively we increase our knowledge, acceptance, and application of gospel principles, we can more effectively utilize the Church to make our lives increasingly gospel centered.”

This incident is usually cited for the censorship and the hierarchal control in the Mormon church. But I cite it here for the substance. What is paramount for Mormons, the Church or the gospel principles? Of course, there won't be a single answer that fits each and every Mormon. It will vary. But increasingly when I am around the 'faithful' LDS, the phrase "the church" is uttered many times more than "God" or "the Gospel." "The church wants us to... ." "The church helped me stop smoking." Etc.

It seems that the Benevolent Order of the Hierarchy's Sycophants is loosing sight of Elohim and Jesus, and much more paramount in the thoughts and words of many Mormons these days is "the Church." It has even taken on a club like feel. Sort of like being part of Chiefs Nation before Kansas City plays a home football game.

Elder Poelman had the priority right the first time. As one might become more gospel centered, he or she would be less dependent on the church. But of course, but Poelman's upstream at the Hierarchy couldn't have that. The Church is the thing, the end all.

Just 5 months after the Church was formed, in Sept 1830, Joseph Smith Jr claimed the following (since canonized as D&C 28:2):

...behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun.,...

The consolidation of power was beginning and manifested in spades in October 1984 with the Ronald Poelman talk incident.

It's obviously 99% about tithing. You know how they say that you can have all these private beliefs about the church that you want, as long as you're not vocal about it? Think about that for a second. If you're paying tithing, you can believe all the false doctrine you want and the leaders don't care as long as you're paying tithing and not affecting the faith of other people; in other words, as long as your not affecting the propensity of other people to pay tithing.

Dan will say your question is a false dilemma. You can certainly look at it like, paying tithing isn't more important than God, but it is a heuristic for your relationship with God.

As a nonbeliever, I can't totally fault that since if there is no God, it's not like there's a great standard for what constitutes a relationship with that imaginary thing.

Gadianton wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:00 pm

It's obviously 99% about tithing. You know how they say that you can have all these private beliefs about the church that you want, as long as you're not vocal about it? Think about that for a second. If you're paying tithing, you can believe all the false doctrine you want and the leaders don't care as long as you're paying tithing and not affecting the faith of other people; in other words, as long as your not affecting the propensity of other people to pay tithing.

Dan will say your question is a false dilemma. You can certainly look at it like, paying tithing isn't more important than God, but it is a heuristic for your relationship with God.

As a nonbeliever, I can't totally fault that since if there is no God, it's not like there's a great standard for what constitutes a relationship with that imaginary thing.

Tithing is the shortest, and most unambiguous question in the list of temple recommend questions. “Are you a full-tithe payer?” The other questions are open to interpretation. This one is a hard measure. It’s non negotiable.