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Brack wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 30, 2025 2:14 am

There was a big book that came out back in the 90s about the parable of Zeno's. Link
I purchased that book back then, but it got lost over time.

Shulem wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 31, 2025 11:42 am

The parable of Zenos is a fish to be fried in another venue but I will say that apologetic excuses and reasonings for accepting/allowing the word VINEYARD instead of ORCHARD is a silly argument that king Solomon would have never bought. Joseph Smith should have never used the word “vineyard” to represent an orchard of olive trees. There are no vines or grapes within the confines of Zenos’s so-called “vineyard” anymore than there is a king’s name in the hieroglyphic writing of Facsimile No. 3. Leave it to the Mormons to twist and corrupt by calling an orchard a vineyard or by calling an Egyptian god a slave.

I know the parable of Zenos is pure fiction created out of the mind of Joseph Smith.

PS. Moksha, do you think I should toss this post down into the Terrestrial board for a new thread and fry a fish?

Valo wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 31, 2025 2:36 pm

Olive trees are often planted in and around vineyards for various reasons, including providing shade, natural pest control, and as a reminder of home for Mediterranean immigrants who started vineyards in places like California. In some cases, olive trees are planted alongside grapevines to offer an additional crop and to utilize the land efficiently.

MerriamWebster wrote:Vineyard - a sphere of activity : field of endeavor

Shulem wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 31, 2025 4:48 pm

Zenos is purported to be of ancient times, predating Lehi. Mediterranean lifestyles and crops in California have nothing to do with ancient Jews or Israel during the times of Solomon or thereafter. Orchards and vineyards are separate crops and both have their own purpose and function -- they are named accordingly. The Zenos account makers it clear there are many olive trees and the function thereof is a tree ORCHARD or an oliveyard. The parable mentions no vines or grapes. There is no wine included in the parable! There is no vineyard in the parable just as there is no king's name in Facsimile No. 3 and neither is there a principal waiter to serve wine in the Facsimile as Smith claimed in his faulty translations. Both accounts (Zenos & Facsimile 3) are mislabeled and are dead wrong.

What does MerriamWebster have to do with the price of tea in China let alone Zenos living in ancient Israel? The only dictionary you should consult for Joseph Smith is the one in which he had access to:

Websters Dictionary 1828 wrote:VIN'YARD , noun

A plantation of vines producing grapes; properly, an inclosure or yard for grape-vines.

The Bible shows how vineyards and orchards (oliveyards) are separate fields produced through husbandry and are named accordingly:

• Exodus 23:11 In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard.

• Deuteronomy 22:9 Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with divers seeds: lest the fruit of thy seed which thou hast sown, and the fruit of thy vineyard, be defiled. (Lev 19:19 thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed)

• Joshua 24:13 And I have given you a land for which ye did not labour, and cities which ye built not, and ye dwell in them; of the vineyards and oliveyards which ye planted not do ye eat.

• 1 Samuel 8:14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.

Brack wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 30, 2025 2:14 am

There was a big book that came out back in the 90s about the parable of Zeno's. Link
I purchased that book back then, but it got lost over time.

James E. Faulconer is more cautious in his explanation for the similarities to Zenos found in Romans 11. In identifying the similarities, Faulconer also notes the presence of significant differences. Rather than attributing the provenance of the similarities directly to Zenos, he suggests it is more likely that Paul had access to "some textual intermediary�such as a quotation [of Zenos] in a third text" (p. 358)�that influenced his writings in Romans 11. He discounts the notion that the striking cognates are due simply to a shared rhetorical tradition. Gary P. Gillum's bibliography of commentaries to Romans 11:17-24 provides a nice reference for additional study of the passage.

While Faulconer is not convinced that a shared rhetorical tradition can adequately explain the similarities between Romans 11 and Zenos's allegory, David Rolph Seely's observations, reported in his contribution dealing with related figurative language in ancient Near East texts, suggest that the abundance of cognates to Zenos may indeed be due to such a shared tradition. While noting that Zenos's allegory is unique in its "length, scope, detail, [and] span of history" (p. 294), he concludes that "the allegory of the olive tree relies on common comparisons known elsewhere, which are easily understood by people who are closely connected with agriculture in terms of tree and plant husbandry, productivity, and harvesting" (p. 301).

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 31, 2025 6:53 pm

Shulem, I am not sure what fish you wish to fry here. I was not remembering this parable but I do have a Book of Mormon so looked it up. I had to push myself thrice to get through this repetitive long winded revivalist sermon. It seems to have reference to a number of Bible parables some about grapes some about olives. In mashing them together a choice of the word orchard or vineyard was necessary. Perhaps vineyard sounded more scripture like.

The quote I copied here struck me as a bit bizarre. Paul depending on this Zeno mishmash? There is a bit of similarity but the ideas are different.

One of the enigmatic aspects of Zenos's allegory is the use of the term vineyard to refer to what is obviously an olive orchard. Was Zenos or Jacob confused in the use of the term in this allegory? John Tvedtnes addresses the question in a botanical and lexical study. He presents convincing evidence to support his conclusion that "the use of the term "vineyard' to depict a place where olive trees were planted is not an error in the Zenos account in Jacob 5, but that it is perfectly in keeping with ancient practices and with the imagery of the vineyard" (pp. 481-82).

Brack wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 31, 2025 10:15 pm

The words "orchard" and "olives" are mentioned together within this verse from the apocrypha.

[29] As in an orchard of Olives upon every tree there are left three or four olives;

And then verse 30 goes on to mentioned a vineyard.

[30] Or as when a vineyard is gathered, there are left some clusters of them that diligently seek through the vineyard:

Link

Shulem wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 31, 2025 4:58 pm

Moksha, do you think I should toss this post down into the Terrestrial board for a new thread and fry a fish?

Moksha wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 01, 2025 12:57 am

Shulem, it was a wise idea. Thanks for making it happen. By the way, battered flounder with a Panko crust and plenty of tartar sauce.