DiscussMormonism.com

I recently ran a thread over at the MAD board. One of my usual themes, having to do with the logistics of god's judicial system. The gist of my argument being that to test, rate and sort 100 billion people up into two, or even four different final dispositions, you are going to have some/many people on the bubble of making the cut.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I didn't make any converts, but I did pose a question that no one took a shot at. That is: I'd like for someone to give a thought experiment on how a testing station in the spirit world could work. Since only about .0001% of the 100 billion people who have existed so far are going to get a shot at the one true gospel in this mortal life, Mormon theory says they they will get another shot in the after world, where the gospel is preached to the people in spirit prison.

How can a testing station in spirit land have any resemblance to this present mortal - carrot and stick format? The main thing being that since one cannot die there will be no mystery as to whether or not there is a soul that continues after death. There is no reason to indicate that the subject will not have full awareness of God since that is what got the one-third kicked out. They had full awareness and rejected him.

Is God going to hide some important clues somewhere with ambiguous writings and make calls on who picks the right ones? Maybe some more disappearing golden plates. I have no idea.

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/76 ... /#comments

Religion offers answers to problems it creates; Mormonism just makes it more obvious.

dantana wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 09, 2025 1:58 am

That is: I'd like for someone to give a thought experiment on how a testing station in the spirit world could work. Since only about .0001% of the 100 billion people who have existed so far are going to get a shot at the one true gospel in this mortal life

And keep in mind, around 70% percent of current Mormons will leave the Church.

What a crappy plan. It appears that the very best and brightest were the 1/3 who left.

Good one Fence Sitter!

Yeah, Declaring one's particular religion as the one true way does create some problems. I'm guessing as an attempt to explain away the harshness and inequality of just the one mortal test to decide forever, and how most have never even heard of any of it, they come up with the second test. Seemingly forgetting about other important parts of their doctrine - The one where we all shouted for joy when we heard it was time to get our all important mortal bodies, Which one needs be tested in. Which most won't get tested in.

Reminds me of another high quality eye roller. - 'Many are called but few are the chosen.' Dude, god made the tests hard. He's looking for the few. Says so right there in the writings.

Everybody Wang Chung wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 09, 2025 2:54 am

dantana wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 09, 2025 1:58 am

That is: I'd like for someone to give a thought experiment on how a testing station in the spirit world could work. Since only about .0001% of the 100 billion people who have existed so far are going to get a shot at the one true gospel in this mortal life

And keep in mind, around 70% percent of current Mormons will leave the Church.

What a crappy plan. It appears that the very best and brightest were the 1/3 who left.

Dantana ,
Testing stations? What a strange idea. I thought God knew our hearts and makes judgement on that basis. Are not tests for our learning experience and benefit?

I guess that leaves the question how does one learn in the afterlife? Perhaps human relationships still need to be grown and cared for. The tests would be therein.

Hey Huck, my job, for - reasons, is to poke holes in Mormon theory. God's job according to Mormon theory is to assess uncreated intelligences. To do this he needs a procedure. It is illogical to me that he can just look into the soul's heart and see what it consists of, like, pulling out a chip and studying the schematic. Even if he can read minds he is just reading passing thoughts which are irrelevant to his task. The only way to test them is to see how they behave. He then keeps track of how they behave. He assigns values to behavior. Murder is worse than littering.

Whether he keeps track simply in his mind, on his fingers, with an abacus or pen and paper doesn't matter. He must keep track over the lifetime of the subject. The algorithm is written to give more weight to the later years when the subject is more mature, but less weight to deathbed conversions. Mercy is relative, and therefore irrelevant. Subjects receive a final score. Since humans tend to be mostly good at heart, the majority will be hovering on the bubble between Terrestrial and Celestial. Some will miss the cut by a whisker. That will suck.

dantana wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 09, 2025 11:58 pm

Hey Huck, my job, for - reasons, is to poke holes in Mormon theory. God's job according to Mormon theory is to assess uncreated intelligences. To do this he needs a procedure. It is illogical to me that he can just look into the soul's heart and see what it consists of, like, pulling out a chip and studying the schematic. Even if he can read minds he is just reading passing thoughts which are irrelevant to his task. The only way to test them is to see how they behave. He then keeps track of how they behave. He assigns values to behavior. Murder is worse than littering.

Whether he keeps track simply in his mind, on his fingers, with an abacus or pen and paper doesn't matter. He must keep track over the lifetime of the subject. The algorithm is written to give more weight to the later years when the subject is more mature, but less weight to deathbed conversions. Mercy is relative, and therefore irrelevant. Subjects receive a final score. Since humans tend to be mostly good at heart, the majority will be hovering on the bubble between Terrestrial and Celestial. Some will miss the cut by a whisker. That will suck.

dantana, I understand a bit of the point you are aiming at. It has an interesting question. My comment was coming from a standard preMormon Christian view. I think that view held sway with Mormons until later ideas of Joseph Smith. In fact I suspect most Mormons still hold the old view and the new late Joseph Smith view simultaneously.

Of course just how judgment works is unclear to most any religious thought. At least to my ears your question highlights a sense that Mormon thinking can seem mechanical and rigidly legal. God can start to appear to be like a powerful CEO.

dantana wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 09, 2025 11:58 pm

Hey Huck, my job, for - reasons, is to poke holes in Mormon theory. God's job according to Mormon theory is to assess uncreated intelligences. To do this he needs a procedure. It is illogical to me that he can just look into the soul's heart and see what it consists of, like, pulling out a chip and studying the schematic. Even if he can read minds he is just reading passing thoughts which are irrelevant to his task. The only way to test them is to see how they behave. He then keeps track of how they behave. He assigns values to behavior. Murder is worse than littering.

Whether he keeps track simply in his mind, on his fingers, with an abacus or pen and paper doesn't matter. He must keep track over the lifetime of the subject. The algorithm is written to give more weight to the later years when the subject is more mature, but less weight to deathbed conversions. Mercy is relative, and therefore irrelevant. Subjects receive a final score. Since humans tend to be mostly good at heart, the majority will be hovering on the bubble between Terrestrial and Celestial. Some will miss the cut by a whisker. That will suck.

[confident statement with nothing to back it up] The "test" doesn't care about someone hovering on a bubble: a fair and effective test of the type you envision sorts us into an exhaustive set of mutually exclusive categories - bright red lines drawn all over the place.

There can be no "mercy" for someone who misses by a whisker: the important thing is that they missed. Good try but no cigar. God is no respecter of persons.

Piet Hein wrote:Our choicest plans have fallen through,
our airiest castles tumbled over,
because of lines we neatly drew
and later neatly stumbled over.

malkie wrote: ↑[confident statement with nothing to back it up] The "test" doesn't care about someone hovering on a bubble: a fair and effective test of the type you envision sorts us into an exhaustive set of mutually exclusive categories - bright red lines drawn all over the place.

There can be no "mercy" for someone who misses by a whisker: the important thing is that they missed. Good try but no cigar. God is no respecter of persons.

Piet Hein wrote:Our choicest plans have fallen through,
our airiest castles tumbled over,
because of lines we neatly drew
and later neatly stumbled over.

We neatly drew is the key. I do not think the divine to be so clumsy and inept. If there is a difference saved, accepted or not the difference is a fundamental gulf. Instead of basically good I see people as basically becoming. They may become good or become something different. It is true some people are better at becoming good but does that require segregated classes? I doubt it.

I do not think there is good without mercy. Perhaps there is power and understanding without mercy.