The non-coin coin system of the Book of Mormon. Scam?

[Gadianton]

King Mosiah established a monetary system based on coins and grains. I don't recall ever thinking about it, I know the apologists get ramped up because critics have said there weren't coin systems back then. And the apologists seem to agree and say, "It doesn't say coins! We already took that out!" FAIR quotes Dr. Peterson of BYU calling it "surprisingly sophisticated [2] system of weights and measures". Elsewhere, Nephite coinage / grain system is considered confirmed by Mesopotamia.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... rmon/Money

FAIR also says:

Such critics ignore that "pieces of gold and silver" is not necessarily the same as "gold pieces" or "silver pieces." They have not paid close attention to the text...Here we see that "pieces of metal" can act as a unit of exchange without being "coins."

They don't seem to understand the problem here like Dan might, but Dan, of course, makes brief suggestions without elaboration because the apologist pact with the devil is all about withholding details. For instance, how elaborate is it that we don't know how much a senum or a senine weighs?

Here is BYU's breakdown of the system:

https://byustudies.BYU.edu/online-book/ ... ary-system

Scripture Central showing the efficiency of the "1, 2, 4, 7" system of non-coin coins.

https://archive.bookofmormoncentral.org ... 316-17.pdf

Yesterday I read Alma 11, specifically to gain understanding of the non-coin coin system of the Nephites. I'm sorry, but I came away laughing. People really take this seriously? It's absurd on its face. There are two main problems I see, one is authorial self-selection: world revolves around the narrative. The other problem is that the Nephites have a metal-piece/grain monetary system whereas Egypt and Mesopotamia had a ledger / unit of account system that involved metals and grain.

In the first problem, the author invents an entire money system as a prop to support the narrative. The author needs to create a backdrop of atheistic corruption that ultimately leads to a lawyer bribing Amulek a judge's pay for 42 days if he would deny the existence of God. Mosiah invented the system as far back as 225 BC. It's now 82 BC, and a Senum still equals exactly 1 senine just as the day it was implemented! In Spain, a escudo (gold) was equal to 16 reales (silver), but within a hundred years that shot up to 24 or higher. Unless, of course, you want to admit it's fiat money. The money units also revolve around the needed legal characters. The central unit of exchange is the senum of silver, which just happens to be the exact pay of a judge for a day's work. Normally, you'd start with a laborer's pay as a round unit, and that would fluctuate, but the pay of officials would be some weird multiple of that and fluctuate much more over time. Pay also doesn't go up or down depending demand; the judges just worked more days to get more of their set day's pay of a senum.

In the second problem, Mesopotamians didn't walk around with shekels. Trade was essentially barter with precious metals as standards -- as grain could also be a standard. How much was x worth in bushels of wheat or a shekel of silver? You could trade a donkey and some clothes for a slave and a bowl if both added up to 1 shekel. Exchanging the actual metal standard would be reserved for long distance transactions. Later, in cities, hacksilver could be piled up on a scale to equal the standard. (In that case, the efficiency in terms of payment in fewest coins is irrelevant). The standardized weights of metal weren't a "medium of exchange" as FAIR says of Book of Mormon money. For FAIR and John Sorenson, the Nephites were strolling into Starbucks to buy coffee with a handful of change, only the change isn't stamped and perhaps isn't regular in shape only weight.

So the apologists are in a fork. The senum system can either be a fiat money system where the values of the coins are fixed, and therefore preserving their defined value over time, such as a dime = 2 nickels = 10 pennies independent of metal content is believable, and the 1-2-4-7 efficiency also matters; or it could be a unit of account where either gold-silver-wheat parity magically held for hundreds of years or just happened to align in convenient ratios the day money was needed as a prop for a chance villain to come up with a bribe.

[drumdude]

Yes, but how did you feel when you read it? Stop using your brain and start using your heart.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

This Nephite monetary narrative is as believable as the Jaredite submarines.

Keep in mind that Alma 11 is not written by Alma or Amulek. It is engraved by Mormon, who is making an abridgment, which means he is leaving out the tedious stuff and including only the most precious/necessary/sacred things covering 1,000 years of history. If anything, the verses about the monetary system prove the Book of Mormon is not an abridgment and was never engraved on metal plates by anyone. Bad writing is bad writing.

Read the following and ask yourself why in the world would Mormon engrave/include this in his abridgment:

3 And the judge received for his wages according to his time—a senine of gold for a day, or a senum of silver, which is equal to a senine of gold; and this is according to the law which was given.

4 Now these are the names of the different pieces of their gold, and of their silver, according to their value. And the names are given by the Nephites, for they did not reckon after the manner of the Jews who were at Jerusalem; neither did they measure after the manner of the Jews; but they altered their reckoning and their measure, according to the minds and the circumstances of the people, in every generation, until the reign of the judges, they having been established by king Mosiah.

5 Now the reckoning is thus—a senine of gold, a seon of gold, a shum of gold, and a limnah of gold.

6 A senum of silver, an amnor of silver, an ezrom of silver, and an onti of silver.

7 A senum of silver was equal to a senine of gold, and either for a measure of barley, and also for a measure of every kind of grain.

8 Now the amount of a seon of gold was twice the value of a senine.

9 And a shum of gold was twice the value of a seon.

10 And a limnah of gold was the value of them all.

11 And an amnor of silver was as great as two senums.

12 And an ezrom of silver was as great as four senums.

13 And an onti was as great as them all.

14 Now this is the value of the lesser numbers of their reckoning—

15 A shiblon is half of a senum; therefore, a shiblon for half a measure of barley.

16 And a shiblum is a half of a shiblon.

17 And a leah is the half of a shiblum.

18 Now this is their number, according to their reckoning.

19 Now an antion of gold is equal to three shiblons.

I'm so glad Mormon thought it was important enough to engrave descriptions of all the various coinage in the abridgment. Makes total sense.

[drumdude]

Since Teryl Givens describes the fictional Book of Mormon peoples as “pre-Christian Christians”, does it make sense to call the Book of Mormon economy a “pre-money monetary system?”

Maybe they even had “pre-computer computers” and “pre-flight airplanes.”

The lost plates may have even given an account of the “pre-Islamic crusades” to rid the Americas of the “pre-Islam Muslims.”

[Gadianton]

Read the following and ask yourself why in the world would Mormon engrave/include this in his abridgment:

It's a good question, and one that I think Shulem is most qualified to answer or speculate on, if he happens upon this thread.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

A few months ago, there was a Reddit post about Lorenzo Snow being given a Nephite coin. I assume this Nephite coin is now somewhere locked away deep in the granite mountain vaults. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... ge_in_the/

I really wish the Church would make this Nephite coin public. Think of how important this artifact would be for building and strengthening testimonies. It would also completely turn archaeology on its head and be the first verifiable evidence of the fictional Nephite/Lamanite civilizations.

[Marcus]

A few months ago, there was a Reddit post about Lorenzo Snow being given a Nephite coin. I assume this Nephite coin is now somewhere locked away deep in the granite mountain vaults. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... ge_in_the/

I really wish the Church would make this Nephite coin public. Think of how important this artifact would be for building and strengthening testimonies. It would also completely turn archaeology on its head and be the first verifiable evidence of the fictional Nephite/Lamanite civilizations.

And found in what is now the state of Georgia, right? That would be quite the historical find.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

And found in what is now the state of Georgia, right? That would be quite the historical find.

Agreed, but I can also understand why the Church doesn't want to give its members evidence for the Book of Mormon. Remember, having faith is much more important than having evidence, for some reason. Makes complete sense.

"You can believe anything in this world with faith."

[Gabriel]

Read the following and ask yourself why in the world would Mormon engrave/include this in his abridgment:

4 Now these are the names of the different pieces of their gold, and of their silver, according to their value. And the names are given by the Nephites, for they did not reckon after the manner of the Jews who were at Jerusalem; neither did they measure after the manner of the Jews; but they altered their reckoning and their measure, according to the minds and the circumstances of the people, in every generation, until the reign of the judges, they having been established by king Mosiah.

5 Now the reckoning is thus—a senine of gold, a seon of gold, a shum of gold, and a limnah of gold.
6 A senum of silver, an amnor of silver, an ezrom of silver, and an onti of silver.
7 A senum of silver was equal to a senine of gold, and either for a measure of barley, and also for a measure of every kind of grain.
8 Now the amount of a seon of gold was twice the value of a senine.
9 And a shum of gold was twice the value of a seon.
10 And a limnah of gold was the value of them all.
11 And an amnor of silver was as great as two senums.
12 And an ezrom of silver was as great as four senums.
13 And an onti was as great as them all.
14 Now this is the value of the lesser numbers of their reckoning—
15 A shiblon is half of a senum; therefore, a shiblon for half a measure of barley.
16 And a shiblum is a half of a shiblon.
17 And a leah is the half of a shiblum.
18 Now this is their number, according to their reckoning.
19 Now an antion of gold is equal to three shiblons.

Clarke devotes almost two thousand words on this subject in his commentary on Exodus 38:24.

Verse Exodus 38:24. All the gold that was occupied for the work, c. — To be able to ascertain the quantum and value of the gold, silver, and brass, which were employed in the tabernacle, and its different utensils, altars, c., it will be necessary to enter into the subject in considerable detail…..

But to make the whole of this matter the easier to the reader, I will lay all of it before him for his clear view in this following table of valuations:

HEBREW money
A Hebrew drachm.....................
Two drachms made a beka or half-shekel, which was the tribute money paid by every Jew to the temple................
Two bekas made a shekel.............
Sixty shekels made a mina...........
Fifty minas made a talent...........
A talent of gold, sixteen to one....

Clarke adds that there is another valuation of Hebrew money called a “Litra”

So it was in the time of Moses and Ezekiel; and so was it in the time of Josephus among that people, for he tells us, Antiq., lib. xiv., c. 12, that a Hebrew mina contained two LITRAS and a half, which comes exactly to nine pounds of our money: for a litra, being the same with a Roman libra, contained twelve ounces troy weight, that is, ninety-six drachms; and therefore two litras and a half must contain two hundred and forty drachms, which being estimated at nine-pence a drachm, according to the Jewish valuation, comes exactly to sixty shekels, or nine pounds of our money.

Clarke continues with other tables of Attic money, Babylonian money, Alexandrian money, and Roman money. As he omitted any valuation of Nephite money, I believe that this is where Joseph Smith saw an opportunity to bring something to the table to round out Mr. Clarke’s education.

Source: https://www.studylight.org/commentaries ... us-38.html

[Doctor Scratch]

Perhaps Church leaders were bullied into hiding the coin by the Mopologists? If the coin was found in Georgia, that would seem to point to a Heartland Theory of the Book of Mormon's location....