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"Bashing" with EVs on a Sunday Night

Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2025 7:53 pm
by Doctor Scratch
Greetings, Friends and Colleagues.

I hope you are hanging in there as the stock market continues to plummet in the wake of the Trump Admin's tariffs. At least, I suppose, it's Thursday, which means that the weekend is right around the corner. Speaking of which: How do you usually spend your Sunday evenings? Having dinner with the family, perhaps? Playing a board game or two? Watching television and sipping a cup of tea? I ask because (it turns out) if you are a Mopologist, "keeping the sabbath day holy" apparently means something rather idiosyncratic. Check it out:
SeN wrote:Many years ago, my good friend Lou Midgley and I drove up to the Salt Lake Valley one Sunday night to spend the evening at an evangelical Protestant church. The good folks there were showing an anti-Mormon film of some kind, and Lou and I wanted to see it. We hoped simply to sit quietly in the back and watch.
LOL! Yeah, sure, sure--"simply sit quietly in the back and watch." I wonder what they told their respective families? "Sorry, hon: you're going to have to watch the kids solo tonight. They're screening an anti-Mormon movie up at an EV church and we can't miss it!" And I also wonder: is DCP speaking simply for himself here, or are we also supposed to believe that it was Midgley's intention to "simply sit quietly in the back and watch"?

Well, in any case, it turns out that their plans for a leisurely and relaxing Sunday evening were spoiled (out of all things) by their attire:
However, we had committed an elementary, naïve, and obvious mistake: We went to the event dressed in conventional Latter-day Saint church clothes — with white shirts and ties, no less. We might as well have been carrying flashing neon copies of the Book of Mormon. Nobody else in the place, not even among the women, was wearing either a white shirt or a tie. None were dressed in what most Latter-day Saints would recognize as “Sunday best.” All were clad in pretty casual attire.
A nice little not-so-subtle swipe at the EVs there: these "slobs" weren't even dressed in "Sunday best." So what happens next? A bashing session, naturally! It would seem that Drs. Peterson and Midgley did not manage to soak up enough of this sort of thing during their time as missionaries. Luckily, they have Sunday evenings to sharpen their rapiers, and Good Ol' DCP even manages to score an opportunity to make the EVs look like dumb, uneducated rubes:
After the showing of the film, which, to be honest, I can’t even remember, we were swarmed by aggressive evangelicals trying to save our souls. Well, actually, I don’t know that saving our souls was high on their list of priorities; they were quite aggressive and not especially nice. (It was something of a best-practices demonstration on how not to save souls.)

They deployed a number of pretty standard evangelical anti-Mormon arguments, and the conversation, such as it was, was going nowhere in particular. If we respond to one critique, another was immediately offered in its stead.

One of the most assertive of our hosts decided to concentrate on the doctrine of the Trinity. We weren’t Christians, he said, because we didn’t believe in biblical trinitarianism. (For some of my thinking on the subject of biblical trinitarianism, which may perhaps surprise a few, see “Notes on Mormonism and the Trinity.”) He unleashed a torrent of proof texts and assertions and condemnations that scarcely permitted time for response.

Eventually, I managed to get in an edgewise word. So as to slow him down a bit, I asked him exactly what he understood by the Trinity. He explained to me that there is only one God, that God is one being who manifests himself in different modes or aspects, sometimes as Father and sometimes as Son and sometimes as Holy Spirit.

I responded that, yes, by the standard of mainstream traditional Christianity, my Latter-day Saint view of the Godhead is indeed heretical. I think that I remember him smiling in triumph. But then I pointed out that, again by the standard of mainstream traditional Christianity, he too was a heretic. I told him that his view was an expression of Sabellianism, or what is sometimes called “modalistic monarchianism.” Sabellianism was a third-century heresy that denied the existence of real, distinct persons within the Trinity. It viewed the one God as, if I may, something of an actor, one who simply puts on this or that mask, according to whatever would serve at the time. It was rejected by most Christians anciently and is still considered a false doctrine.

He protested against my description of what he had said, claiming that his was true, biblical, trinitarianism.

“Actually,” said one of the others who were standing nearby, “I don’t think you’re right. Maybe you need to talk with Pastor.”
Zing! DCP manages to elicit a smackdown from the guy's own fellow EV! Wow! And to think: all the Mopologists wanted all along here was just to spend a pleasant and peaceful evening quietly viewing this specimen (whose title he cannot even remember: sure, he remembers that the women were wearing "shabby" casual clothes, but he cannot be bothered to recall which film it was?) of anti-Mormon cinema. Is it just me, or does it strike you as odd that they didn't just drive over to their local Blockbuster in order to rent the film? (Or get it off Netflix, or whatever?)

In any case, quite a remarkable story! And yet another case of Dr. Peterson engaging in trashing of another faith tradition: doing everything he can, apparently, to make EVs look like dopey idiots. It's worth noting that lots of key details are missing from the story (which, come to think of it, is a common feature of just about all of DCP's stories about confronting other religionists). We don't know which church it was, nor the date, nor its location, nor anything, really, that would allow us to confirm the story, or, even better, to get the EVs' side of things. (Is it really true that Midgley just sat there silently, saying *nothing*??)

Regardless, you have to admit that this most certainly deserves a place in Dr. Peterson's ever-fattening "Hitchens File."

Re: "Bashing" with EVs on a Sunday Night

Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2025 9:09 pm
by drumdude
Interviewer wrote:Do flawed apologetics ever repel both Latter-day Saints and those from other faiths?
DCP wrote:Absolutely. And unfortunately. Religious claims are controversial, and it’s all too easy for discussions concerning them to become, in Book of Mormon language, contentious.

We who have been blessed with the Gospel should never think that that blessing, in itself, proves us better than others. It certainly grants us no license to be unchristian or uncharitable. We’ve been given a magnificent divine gift, and we should be humble about it.

Debates about religion can very quickly become ego-driven games of one-upmanship. (It’s noteworthy, I think, that relatively few women are involved in apologetics. While religious truth is surely at least as important to women as to men, I worry that discussions about where it is to be found are too often aggressively male-driven and competitive, perhaps because they’re too often testosterone-fueled.)

Apologetics should not become combative, let alone exclusive and hateful. The goal isn’t to defeat enemies, but to defend and commend truth.
https://www.fromthedesk.org/10-question ... on/#flawed

Re: "Bashing" with EVs on a Sunday Night

Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2025 9:30 pm
by huckelberry
Isn't this whole board a bashing session? Well maybe not having gone on a mission I do not know the true flavor of a bashing session. In any case, I find myself with some tolerance for observing and criticizing. Peterson has a long standing enjoyment of catching EVs up on the modalism thing. I see no harm in his doing so.

I thought it kind of funny to picture Peterson and what's-his-name dressed so out of place that they had a big I AM Mormon sign on them. I think Peterson saw the humor in that. I did not see anything about him thinking people were slobs.

Re: "Bashing" with EVs on a Sunday Night

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2025 1:02 am
by Gadianton
Maybe "slob" is an exaggeration, but he's clearly taking a shot at those who don't understand the importance of wearing a suit and tie on Sunday, and with a white shirt, not a colored shirt underneath. A friend who had mission in Germany said the JWs did much better than they did there. He attributed it in part to how serious and dour they were and in their dark suits. There is always somebody out there more serious than you on Sunday.

Strange to me he's still telling these kinds of stories where he's clearly invested in how he "won" the debate. It's most likely the person who said, "let's talk with pastor" was just trying to be diplomatic. I had a few intense bashes on my mission. The worst one was a setup. I knew I was being setup so I played dumb and came prepared. I thought I did well and some of the folks who had been invited to watch the spectacle were pretty nice to me and tried to find agreement with some of the things I said and one even complimented my Bible. But that's just because they were more normal people who weren't wired to think embarrassing somebody by showing them they are wrong in front of a lot of people would ever change someone's mind. The guy who invited us became furious and went dead quiet at a certain point when the others participated more congenially. I think that was my last bash. My comp said he thought I did well, but he also said he bet that the friends of the other guy told that guy that he won. I'm sure he was right.

Re: "Bashing" with EVs on a Sunday Night

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2025 1:17 am
by MG 2.0
huckelberry wrote:
Thu Apr 03, 2025 9:30 pm
Isn't this whole board a bashing session?
Ya think?

I don't know who this Dr. Scratch guy thinks he is. Judge, jury, and executioner of DCP. Quite a fixation on him and some guy named Midgley. I've never understood it. Makes for interesting reading now and then. Mostly the same stuff.

They ought to get together and 'break bread' and get to know each other on a personal level. Otherwise, we just see more of the same.

The unfortunate state of affairs with online conversations nowadays.

I'd love to meet Morley and some of the other folks here. That would be cool.

Regards,
MG

Re: "Bashing" with EVs on a Sunday Night

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2025 5:09 am
by huckelberry
Gadianton, I haven't seen suits white shirts and ties in church on Sunday in 50 years it's gone out of style.

Re: "Bashing" with EVs on a Sunday Night

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2025 7:47 am
by Moksha
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Apr 04, 2025 1:17 am
I don't know who this Dr. Scratch guy thinks he is. Judge, jury, and executioner of DCP. Quite a fixation on him and some guy named Midgley. I've never understood it. Makes for interesting reading now and then. Mostly the same stuff.

Regards,
MG
This is especially true since God has decreed both the IBM Corporation dress code of 1965 as the preferred style of dress and Elizabethan English as the best means of prayer. Anything that deviates from these standards shows how far those EVs are from the True Church.

By the way, Midgely is a famed pugilist and a good friend to Dr. Peterson.

Re: "Bashing" with EVs on a Sunday Night

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2025 8:03 am
by I Have Questions
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Apr 04, 2025 1:17 am
huckelberry wrote:
Thu Apr 03, 2025 9:30 pm
Isn't this whole board a bashing session?
I don't know who this Dr. Scratch guy thinks he is. Judge, jury, and executioner of DCP. Quite a fixation on him and some guy named Midgley...
MG knows very well who Louis MidGley is

Re: "Bashing" with EVs on a Sunday Night

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2025 8:21 am
by Marcus
huckelberry wrote:
Fri Apr 04, 2025 5:09 am
Gadianton, I haven't seen suits white shirts and ties in church on Sunday in 50 years it's gone out of style.
Maybe it's the location. Every male in my southwestern family who is still LDS still wears a suit and tie to every church event I've been to or seen pictures of, even the young ones. Non-white shirts peek through in very muted pastels. The women and girls all wear dresses. Always.

At my family's catholic parish here on the East coast, people dress nicely for the weekend, but they would really be astonished if I told them how my western LDS relatives dress every single Sunday. Especially my female friends, who would be shocked that women wearing pants is considered controversial. Maybe things have changed in some areas, but I haven't seen it.

So, as I started out, maybe it's the location, but I wouldn't count out the isolated nature of cult conditioning. That still seems to carry a fair amount of weight.

Re: "Bashing" with EVs on a Sunday Night

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2025 8:52 am
by I Have Questions
Doctor Scratch wrote:
Thu Apr 03, 2025 7:53 pm
However, we had committed an elementary, naïve, and obvious mistake: We went to the event dressed in conventional Latter-day Saint church clothes — with white shirts and ties, no less. We might as well have been carrying flashing neon copies of the Book of Mormon. Nobody else in the place, not even among the women, was wearing either a white shirt or a tie. None were dressed in what most Latter-day Saints would recognize as “Sunday best.” All were clad in pretty casual attire.
A nice little not-so-subtle swipe at the EVs there: these "slobs" weren't even dressed in "Sunday best."
How does he know that wasn’t their Sunday Best? Judgemental much? Did Jesus judge people based on how they were dressed?

Peterson’s anecdotes are all “Frat House” level attempts at self aggrandisement. He must be very insecure to need to do that as often as he does.