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Jeff Holland claims Jesus failed his earthly mission.
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2025 7:24 am
by I Have Questions
At Conference
Jeff said…Jesus began the last year of His mortal life by intensifying the training of His Apostles. If His message and His Church were to survive Him, more had to be pressed into the hearts of 12 very ordinary men who had known Him for scarcely 24 months.
That being the case, and because there was a great apostasy, Jesus failed in his mission to have his message continue on after his death.
Re: Jeff Holland claims Jesus failed his earthly mission.
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2025 11:16 am
by IWMP
Wow, that feels like blasphemy. I thought God was all knowing, knew the future. Don't think it would be right to have someone in human bear the burden of everyone's sins and suffering when knowing his purpose would fail. I don't think the purpose of Christ is to restore a church. I thought the purpose was to show that life after death was possible.
Re: Jeff Holland claims Jesus failed his earthly mission.
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2025 2:25 pm
by drumdude
Mormons have to push the ridiculous idea that Jesus alone wasn’t sufficient.
Imagine a 3rd restorationist church that claimed Joseph failed and Rusty Nelson or some other charismatic power hungry figure was needed to restore the true restoration. You can keep going ad nauseum to the Nth degree.
Re: Jeff Holland claims Jesus failed his earthly mission.
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2025 9:09 pm
by bbbbbbb
IWMP wrote: ↑Sat Apr 12, 2025 11:16 am
I Have Questions wrote: ↑Sat Apr 12, 2025 7:24 am
At Conference
Jeff said… That being the case, and because there was a great apostasy, Jesus failed in his mission to have his message continue on after his death.
Wow, that feels like blasphemy. I thought God was all knowing, knew the future. Don't think it would be right to have someone in human bear the burden of everyone's sins and suffering when knowing his purpose would fail. I don't think the purpose of Christ is to restore a church. I thought the purpose was to show that life after death was possible.
Actually, if one believes the gospels, the purpose of Christ was not to show that life after death was possible, but to seek and to save that which was lost (Luke 19:10). That is actually, in my opinion, much more significant. In biblical Christianity Jesus Christ is not merely a teacher or a good example, but the Savior of His people.
In any event, the concept of the Great Apostasy was developed in the early nineteenth century as a means of justifying a Restoration.
Re: Jeff Holland claims Jesus failed his earthly mission.
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2025 9:10 pm
by bbbbbbb
IWMP wrote: ↑Sat Apr 12, 2025 11:16 am
I Have Questions wrote: ↑Sat Apr 12, 2025 7:24 am
At Conference
Jeff said… That being the case, and because there was a great apostasy, Jesus failed in his mission to have his message continue on after his death.
Wow, that feels like blasphemy. I thought God was all knowing, knew the future. Don't think it would be right to have someone in human bear the burden of everyone's sins and suffering when knowing his purpose would fail. I don't think the purpose of Christ is to restore a church. I thought the purpose was to show that life after death was possible.
Actually, if one believes the gospels, the purpose of Christ was not to show that life after death was possible, but to seek and to save that which was lost (Luke 19:10). That is actually, in my opinion, much more significant. In biblical Christianity Jesus Christ is not merely a teacher or a good example, but the Savior of His people.
In any event, the concept of the Great Apostasy was developed in the early nineteenth century as a means of justifying a Restoration.
Re: Jeff Holland claims Jesus failed his earthly mission.
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2025 9:16 pm
by IWMP
bbbbbbb wrote: ↑Sat Apr 12, 2025 9:09 pm
IWMP wrote: ↑Sat Apr 12, 2025 11:16 am
Wow, that feels like blasphemy. I thought God was all knowing, knew the future. Don't think it would be right to have someone in human bear the burden of everyone's sins and suffering when knowing his purpose would fail. I don't think the purpose of Christ is to restore a church. I thought the purpose was to show that life after death was possible.
Actually, if one believes the gospels, the purpose of Christ was not to show that life after death was possible, but to seek and to save that which was lost (Luke 19:10). That is actually, in my opinion, much more significant. In biblical Christianity Jesus Christ is not merely a teacher or a good example, but the Savior of His people.
In any event, the concept of the Great Apostasy was developed in the early nineteenth century as a means of justifying a Restoration.
I was under the impression that he is the saviour because of the crucifixion and resurrection and that is the reason people are saved.
Re: Jeff Holland claims Jesus failed his earthly mission.
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2025 10:16 pm
by consiglieri
I Have Questions wrote: ↑Sat Apr 12, 2025 7:24 am
At Conference
Jeff said…Jesus began the last year of His mortal life by intensifying the training of His Apostles. If His message and His Church were to survive Him, more had to be pressed into the hearts of 12 very ordinary men who had known Him for scarcely 24 months.
That being the case, and because there was a great apostasy, Jesus failed in his mission to have his message continue on after his death.
I think Joseph Smith scored that as a point in his favor.
Re: Jeff Holland claims Jesus failed his earthly mission.
Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2025 4:07 am
by bbbbbbb
IWMP wrote: ↑Sat Apr 12, 2025 9:16 pm
bbbbbbb wrote: ↑Sat Apr 12, 2025 9:09 pm
Actually, if one believes the gospels, the purpose of Christ was not to show that life after death was possible, but to seek and to save that which was lost (Luke 19:10). That is actually, in my opinion, much more significant. In biblical Christianity Jesus Christ is not merely a teacher or a good example, but the Savior of His people.
In any event, the concept of the Great Apostasy was developed in the early nineteenth century as a means of justifying a Restoration.
I was under the impression that he is the saviour because of the crucifixion and resurrection and that is the reason people are saved.
The crucifixion and resurrection are the means by which people are saved, but, as Jesus said, He came to seek and to save that which was lost. His purpose was much more active than merely sitting aside and wistfully hoping that some folks might exercise their "free agency" and join His Church.
Re: Jeff Holland claims Jesus failed his earthly mission.
Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2025 9:25 am
by Moksha
bbbbbbb wrote: ↑Sat Apr 12, 2025 9:09 pm
In biblical Christianity, Jesus Christ is not merely a teacher or a good example but the Savior of His people.
I am glad that it became enlarged via Paul to include the gentiles, thus ensuring the Pauline version of Christianity did not become extinct.
As Jesus said, He came to seek and to save that which was lost.
Jesus spoke much like Shulem does when he is addressing LDS apologists.
Re: Jeff Holland claims Jesus failed his earthly mission.
Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2025 5:07 pm
by huckelberry
I Have Questions wrote: ↑Sat Apr 12, 2025 7:24 am
At Conference
Jeff said…Jesus began the last year of His mortal life by intensifying the training of His Apostles. If His message and His Church were to survive Him, more had to be pressed into the hearts of 12 very ordinary men who had known Him for scarcely 24 months.
That being the case, and because there was a great apostasy, Jesus failed in his mission to have his message continue on after his death.
Questions,
I imagine LDS believers would think that though some things were lost enough of Jesus's message survived to make fertile ground for the restoration.
There is a temptation to try and condense Jesus purpose into a simple easy to repeat phrase. I think such common phrases contain some truth but leave important things out. It is possible for them to be a bit confusing as a result.