Co-Opting Wordsworth for Mopologetics?

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Doctor Scratch
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Co-Opting Wordsworth for Mopologetics?

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Are you a fan of the Romantic poets? You know: Shelly; Coleridge; Keats; Byron; Wordsworth? These British writers were interested in notions of the "sublime," and often wrote on topics related to nature. The height of their activity was the middle of the 1800s in Britain. Unless you were really digging--really searching--the Romantic poets have nothing whatsoever to do with Mormonism--let alone with Mopologetics--and yet over at "SeN," the Afore is busy making a lengthy argument that, actually, William Wordsworth *is* quite Mormon in spirit:
Wordsworth’s thinking seems to me (and not to me alone) to resonate in a particularly wonderful way with central concepts of the Restoration. So far as I’m aware, his only documented reference to the topic is an inquiry, addressed to his American publisher, about the “wretched” sect that his niece had joined. (His publisher wrote back to say that he knew very little about “Mormonism,” but that Joseph Smith was an imposter.) Had he understood our doctrine, though, I think that he might have found it less “wretched” than he imagined it to be.

I admit that I laughed when I read this post. What aspects of the "doctrine" does he imagine that Wordsworth would have liked? Eternal progression? Polygamy? The Curse of Cain? Book of Mormon historicity? It's tough to say. DCP notes that Wordsworth's poetry frequently deals with "his life-long deep love for the natural world," but that is a remark straight out of Captain Obvious's Playbook. It's like pointing out that Carl Sagan was interested in space. That being said, what is the connection to Mormonism here? Where--one wonders--do these Wordsworth poems intersect with the key teachings of the Restoration? The Afore cites "Tintern Abbey" and "Intimations of Immortality"--arguably Wordsworth's two best-known poems--and claims that these are actually about "the pre-existent world from which we all come.'

Again: I had do laugh at this one. WTF?? You are welcome to read the poems for yourself (they are fantastic in their own right: marvels of poetic craftsmanship), but I cannot for the life of me spot anything in them that could reasonably be construed as referring to the Mormon concept of the "pre-existence." Gee, do you think that Wordsworth believed that Jesus and Satan were brothers, and that there was a "war in heaven" prior to everyone coming down to get a physical body?

No, sorry--the reality is that Wordsworth, and, indeed, the Romantic poets more generally have very little in common with LDS doctrine, and even less in common with Mopologetics, and yet what we're seeing here is something that occurs frequently in the realm of Mopologetics--i.e., the attempt to shoehorn some famous person and/or their work into and LDS context for Mopologetic purposes.

It's as if the Afore is saying, "See? See?? Even a genius poet like Wordsworth has resonance with Mormon teachings! See! We *can* be like the great geniuses of the world!" There is a somewhat bizarre wishfulness on the part of the Mopologists to "convert" these great thinkers--a kind of sad hope that, one day, beyond the veil, Wordsworth, Goethe, Beethoven, and all these other famous people will come around and say, "Oh, yeah: of course! Mormonism is obviously true and great, so, yeah! We're believers!"

It's really hard to understate the absurdity of this. For one thing, if Mormonism *is* actually true, it's not like anyone will have much of a choice in the next life: either you assent, or you are booted down to one of the lower kingdoms with non-functioning genitalia. But the other absurdity is the idea that Wordsworth or any other "great" person from history would find anything about Mormonism convincing. *That*, ultimately, is why you get this rather pathetic fantasizing from DCP, where he gives these off-the-wall readings of the poetry in the hopes that, gee, yeah, *MAY*be Wordsworth would have found the Restoration interesting! If only he were able to figure out that "Tintern Abbey" is actually about the pre-existence.

(On a sidenote: I also had to chuckle over the fact that Wordsworth is singled out as the "greatest" Romantic poet. Of course the Mopologists avoid John Keats like the plague: Keats died at the tender age of 26 or 27, meaning that, yes, he had produced a body of work at a very, *VERY* young age that blows the Book of Mormon out of the water and very seriously undercuts the apologetic arguments about 'How could Joseph have done it???')

Here is the thing: no famous or "great" person has ever been convinced by Mormonism. At least, no one of Wordsworth's stature. There is no way that Wordsworth, or Shelley, or any of the other great poets would have converted. None of the famous economists that DCP hung out with in his youth ever converted. Michael Coe was not convinced; nor was Mark Twain; nor was Philip Jenkins. Margaret Barker was not convinced, either. And think: in some of these cases, the Mopologists have had to go to great lengths in order to tear town these people--mercilessly attacking Coe, for example, and repeatedly trashing Twain for his "chloroform in print" comment. Meanwhile, probably the biggest "famous" admirer of Mormon doctrine from the past 100 years or so was Harold Bloom, and yet even he was trashed by the Mopologists. But hey: if DCP can wildly distort and misinterpret Wordsworth's poetry, then why can't Bloom give a subjective reading of the doctrine of eternal progression?

Ultimately, posts like this recent one of "SeN" show the cultural poverty of Mormonism and Mopologetics. He can't turn to an LDS writer for this sort of thing, or even to LDS hymns, for that matter. Instead, it's this vicarious, by-proxy sort of thing wherein the Mopologists has to desperately imagine that Shakespeare, or Vivaldi, or Michealangelo, or whoever, *might* have converted to Mormonism if only they had learned how cool it is! Instead, the real message is the Mormonism, sadly, is not enough--not by a long shot--and so Mopologists like DCP will go desperately seeking for edification and happiness outside of the Church.
"If, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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Re: Co-Opting Wordsworth for Mopologetics?

Post by drumdude »

A clueless SeN Commenter wrote:Wordsworth's temple work was done by Wilford Woodruff and others in the St. George temple when they performed temple work for the founding fathers. In Woodruff's own words, "I straightway went into the baptismal font and called upon Brother McCallister to baptize me for the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and fifty other eminent men, making one hundred in all, including John Wesley, Columbus, and others." You can see the full list here: https://josephsmithfoundation.org/wiki/ ... entspirits
The temple ceremonies provide a nice way to connect Mormonism to everyone. It must give them such a warm fuzzy feeling to do the work to allow people of such prominence their golden ticket into super VIP heaven.

It's very similar to when DCP posts photos of him standing in the vicinity of prominent people.
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Re: Co-Opting Wordsworth for Mopologetics?

Post by Gadianton »

Amazing how quickly a famous person's work gets done, while poor Frenchy had to wait for a Mopologist slightly less out to lunch than the typical Mopologist to submit his name after years of the apologists capitalizing on his alleged loneliness tragedy, as a stick to beat non-believers with. And then after the name submission is revealed, the apologists scramble to cover the matter up. It would have been impossible to do it before now! wow, decades more of loneliness awaited him because the folks preaching about how terrible his loneliness was don't even think about utilizing the restoration's saving principles to benefit him, as they coopt him as a mascot. Woodruff certainly didn't worry about any red tape in baptizing Wordsworth.

And you watch, the day Vladimir Putin dies, the church will need to shut down the temples there will be so many of the Afore's fellow saints and dearest friends clamoring to be the one who performs his work. Will better not be in depression that day if he's going to be the lucky winner.
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Re: Co-Opting Wordsworth for Mopologetics?

Post by Physics Guy »

The list of eminent persons vicariously baptized includes the great 19th century chemist and physicist Michael Faraday. He is described in the list as the “father of electronics”, but this seems to be a confusion between electronics and electricity. Faraday discovered electromagnetic induction and a basic kind of electric motor, but he died decades before electrons were discovered.

If one supposes that he discovered the truth of Mormonism after death, then he might have wanted Mormon baptism, but in life Faraday would not have been attracted by Mormonism at all. As a devout Sandemanian he was a member of a Protestant Christian denomination that seems about as opposite to Mormonism as it could be.
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Re: Co-Opting Wordsworth for Mopologetics?

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Sun May 18, 2025 5:33 pm
Here is the thing: no famous or "great" person has ever been convinced by Mormonism. At least, no one of Wordsworth's stature. There is no way that Wordsworth, or Shelley, or any of the other great poets would have converted. None of the famous economists that DCP hung out with in his youth ever converted. Michael Coe was not convinced; nor was Mark Twain; nor was Philip Jenkins. Margaret Barker was not convinced, either. And think: in some of these cases, the Mopologists have had to go to great lengths in order to tear town these people--mercilessly attacking Coe, for example, and repeatedly trashing Twain for his "chloroform in print" comment. Meanwhile, probably the biggest "famous" admirer of Mormon doctrine from the past 100 years or so was Harold Bloom, and yet even he was trashed by the Mopologists. But hey: if DCP can wildly distort and misinterpret Wordsworth's poetry, then why can't Bloom give a subjective reading of the doctrine of eternal progression?

Ultimately, posts like this recent one of "SeN" show the cultural poverty of Mormonism and Mopologetics. He can't turn to an LDS writer for this sort of thing, or even to LDS hymns, for that matter. Instead, it's this vicarious, by-proxy sort of thing wherein the Mopologists has to desperately imagine that Shakespeare, or Vivaldi, or Michealangelo, or whoever, *might* have converted to Mormonism if only they had learned how cool it is! Instead, the real message is the Mormonism, sadly, is not enough--not by a long shot--and so Mopologists like DCP will go desperately seeking for edification and happiness outside of the Church.
The Church of England gets to claim Wordsworth and the Afore gets to claim Jon McNaughton, Added Upon and Chris Heimerdinger.
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Re: Co-Opting Wordsworth for Mopologetics?

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Gadianton wrote:
Sun May 18, 2025 6:35 pm
Amazing how quickly a famous person's work gets done, while poor Frenchy had to wait for a Mopologist slightly less out to lunch than the typical Mopologist to submit his name after years of the apologists capitalizing on his alleged loneliness tragedy, as a stick to beat non-believers with. And then after the name submission is revealed, the apologists scramble to cover the matter up. It would have been impossible to do it before now! wow, decades more of loneliness awaited him because the folks preaching about how terrible his loneliness was don't even think about utilizing the restoration's saving principles to benefit him, as they coopt him as a mascot. Woodruff certainly didn't worry about any red tape in baptizing Wordsworth.

And you watch, the day Vladimir Putin dies, the church will need to shut down the temples there will be so many of the Afore's fellow saints and dearest friends clamoring to be the one who performs his work. Will better not be in depression that day if he's going to be the lucky winner.
Some excellent points, Dr. Robbers. Yes: it certainly speaks to the priorities of Mormonism and Mopologetics. Why bother with the “rank and file” when you can be on a constant vacation?
"If, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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Re: Co-Opting Wordsworth for Mopologetics?

Post by I Have Questions »

Our group headed up to the Lake District today, devoting much of our time to William Wordsworth (1770-1850) and to his wife, Mary, and his sister, Dorothy, who were both very important elements of his life and his creativity. It might seem odd that a tour focused on Latter-day Saint history should devote the better part of a day to the greatest of the English Romantic poets, but it makes entire sense to me. For one thing, Grasmere and the Lake District are very beautiful.
It's not odd that a tour focused on Latter-day Saint history should devote the better part of a day touring The Lake District, it's entirely understandable given the complete lack of material that the tour company has for such a tour. Padding the itinerary with a detour into a beautiful region makes entire sense. Unless you are on the tour wanting to learn about LDS history in England.
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Re: Co-Opting Wordsworth for Mopologetics?

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

I Have Questions wrote:
Mon May 19, 2025 11:20 am
It's not odd that a tour focused on Latter-day Saint history should devote the better part of a day touring The Lake District, it's entirely understandable given the complete lack of material that the tour company has for such a tour. Padding the itinerary with a detour into a beautiful region makes entire sense. Unless you are on the tour wanting to learn about LDS history in England.
The Afore did take the tour group to a tree where Elder Holland occasionally prayed. Talk about getting your money’s worth. There's nothing like traveling across the Atlantic to visit a tree where Elder Holland would go to pray about a challenging issue. Don't be surprised if the Afore takes his group to dinner at a fish & chip shop where Elder Holland once ate.
We also visited what has come to be called “Elder Holland’s oak.” It’s a tree at the end of Downham, a little bit of a walk uphill from the road, to which, as a member of the Seventy and as the then area president for Great Britain, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland would repair whenever he wanted to consider and to pray about a challenging issue. It was at “Elder Holland’s Oak” that, he has said, he received a strong answer as to the location of what is now the Preston England Temple. A large stone block has now been placed near the tree with the approval of the Asshetons (who, on the whole, have preferred not to have monuments or signs or markers in the village). It will eventually bear a plaque telling the story of his experience there with regard to the temple. My wife suggested that she take a picture of our group standing in front of the tree and that we send it to Elder Holland as a token of affection. Great idea. He has been kind to us over the years.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... qus_thread

This whole bizarre tour smacks of hero worship. Who takes a picture of a tree and sends it to Elder Holland? Folks, you can't make this stuff up.
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Re: Co-Opting Wordsworth for Mopologetics?

Post by sock puppet »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Mon May 19, 2025 1:15 pm
I Have Questions wrote:
Mon May 19, 2025 11:20 am
It's not odd that a tour focused on Latter-day Saint history should devote the better part of a day touring The Lake District, it's entirely understandable given the complete lack of material that the tour company has for such a tour. Padding the itinerary with a detour into a beautiful region makes entire sense. Unless you are on the tour wanting to learn about LDS history in England.
The Afore did take the tour group to a tree where Elder Holland occasionally prayed. Talk about getting your money’s worth. There's nothing like traveling across the Atlantic to visit a tree where Elder Holland would go to pray about a challenging issue. Don't be surprised if the Afore takes his group to dinner at a fish & chip shop where Elder Holland once ate.
We also visited what has come to be called “Elder Holland’s oak.” It’s a tree at the end of Downham, a little bit of a walk uphill from the road, to which, as a member of the Seventy and as the then area president for Great Britain, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland would repair whenever he wanted to consider and to pray about a challenging issue. It was at “Elder Holland’s Oak” that, he has said, he received a strong answer as to the location of what is now the Preston England Temple. A large stone block has now been placed near the tree with the approval of the Asshetons (who, on the whole, have preferred not to have monuments or signs or markers in the village). It will eventually bear a plaque telling the story of his experience there with regard to the temple. My wife suggested that she take a picture of our group standing in front of the tree and that we send it to Elder Holland as a token of affection. Great idea. He has been kind to us over the years.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... qus_thread

This whole bizarre tour smacks of hero worship. Who takes a picture of a tree and sends it to Elder Holland? Folks, you can't make this stuff up.
If Elder Holland has an Oak, does President Oaks have a Holland?
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Re: Co-Opting Wordsworth for Mopologetics?

Post by Dr Moore »

Excellent to see you here, Doctor. As usual, I have little to add that you haven’t anticipated. One footnote, if I may. It is so easy for narcissists to boldly opine on what dead people thought or would have thought. Wordsworth isn’t here to answer, and so Mopologetically it’s a layup. All the more so because doing so in context of great writers makes Dan look like a supremely thoughtful seminary teacher, hitting on devotional faith and academics. It reminds me of my best friend’s dad, frankly. His mother filed for divorce when he (my friend) was 10, because his dad was a priesthood-wielding jerk to her, and she then died a few years later. His dad tells the story to this day, that he had a touching and healing conversation with his ex wife on her deathbed in which she fully forgave him and even apologized to him for her part in things. No one was there to witness this great moment. The design is clear enough: he wants everyone to know that she, not he, was to blame for the divorce. Dan is doing the same thing with dead people who can’t argue back.
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