Formal Mormon Theology

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Ego
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Formal Mormon Theology

Post by Ego »

Introduction
The following was an old attempt of mine to establish the beginnings of a formal theology for Mormonism. I lost interest after a while for various reasons, but since the topic of Mormon Theology (specifically the lack thereof) came up the other day, I thought it would be interesting to share and see what critiques you have for it. Plus this is a good way to introduce myself on this forum as one who thinks way too much. :lol:

I recognize that the Lectures on Faith, certain sections of the Doctrine and Covenants, as well as the infamous King Follet Discourse constitute the origin of many of the particular beliefs about God that Mormons have. Other more recent attempts at Theology have been made such as in Blake Ostler’s ‘Monarchical Monotheism’ theory. Unfortunately we see examples of theology being deemphasized in general such as in the case of the de-canonization of the Lectures on Faith, as well as the fact that the King Follet Discourse was never canonized despite having a heavy influence in Mormon thought when it comes to theological matters.

In a formal Mormon theology it would first be important to establish that Mormon beliefs about the nature of God are internally consistent and logical. I attempted this by providing definitions and axioms which encapsulate either some teaching within Mormonism or some observation from philosophy. These will then be used in proofs which describe the nature of God as well as some other Mormon doctrines. I drew inspiration from Euclid’s The Elements for my use of postulates in philosophy, seeing as I think it has the best ability to explain things in a thorough way. Because love is considered an essential characteristic of God, as well as being generally seen as virtuous, these proofs are calculated to show how the Mormon doctrines present a description of existence where the most amount of love possible is allowed for. Whether or not the starting axioms (or postulates) are true, and whether or not reality really is one in which there is maximal love allowed for is another matter. So without further ado I present the definitions, postulates, and theorems which show the internal logic and consistency of Mormon Theology.

Definitions
The single word of ‘love’ can mean several different things, the ancient Greeks had multiple words for love which are useful for making distinctions between the different meanings. In the King James Bible, the Greek word translated as ‘charity’ is ‘agape.’ A form of that word was used for both the first and second great commandments of love given by Jesus and will be the focus of the following philosophy of love.

Love
Love could vaguely be defined as the desire that a person has to have “one heart and one mind” (Moses 7:18) with another person. When I say “one heart and one mind” it would be more precise to say that their true essences (their things-in-itself or noumenal sides) become unified. The desire that the person has is a will which is the underlying motivation for his actions. For love to be pure, that desire for unification must be the true underlying motivation for a person’s actions, he can’t have ulterior motives or else like Paul said, “And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.” (1 Corinthians 13:3).
To summarize, this is the definition of love that I will use in this theology:
A will of love is when a person has a will to be unified with the true essence of another person.

Pride
Hate can be considered love’s opposite, but President Benson gave a popular talk about pride which leads me to talk about pride as love’s opposite in this theology. Pride and hate are ultimately connected anyways, as President Benson explained as he defined pride, “The central feature of pride is enmity—enmity toward God and enmity toward our fellowmen. Enmity means ‘hatred toward, hostility to, or a state of opposition’” (Beware of Pride, Benson, April 1989). He went on to say that pride is the universal sin; to connect what he said to philosophy, pride is a will that a person can have, and if he has a will of pride then anything he does when motivated by that will is a sin. We can now understand even more of Paul’s writing which I quoted when explaining love; if those seemingly charitable acts are actually motivated by a will of pride then the person would not be considered right with the Father (or in “a state of opposition” to Him) and therefore in sin.
To summarize, this is the definition of pride that I will use in this theology:
A will of pride is when a person has a will to be opposed to the true essence of another person.

Q&A
Is it possible to know the true essence of a thing or person?
Now some would object to knowing the true essence as a possibility; some go so far as to discount the existence of the ‘thing-in-itself’ proposed by Immanuel Kant, so they would certainly object to any proposition about knowing it. The objection comes because the usual way of knowing anything first requires experiencing a phenomenon and if the true essence by definition is beyond phenomena then it is impossible to know it according to the general way of learning. Jean-Luc Marion speaks of ‘saturated phenomena’ which are experiences which fill the senses and even exceed them; because they are not fully comprehended they show a person that there is more to the world or to reality beyond what he perceives phenomenally. This is especially relevant to loving another person when a saturated phenomenon manifests as ‘sonder’, the realization that another person genuinely has consciousness just as oneself.

This is just the beginning of my writings, but I don’t want to spam this with too much all at once. I’d prefer a little discussion before I move on to posting the postulates. Feel free to critique any of what I’ve presented or discuss Mormon theology and the sources I mentioned in general.
I am called Ego because that is what I seek to overcome in myself.
yellowstone123
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Re: Formal Mormon Theology

Post by yellowstone123 »

Ego wrote on the concept of love:
Love could vaguely be defined as the desire that a person has to have “one heart and one mind” (Moses 7:18) with another person. When I say “one heart and one mind” it would be more precise to say that their true essences (their things-in-itself or noumenal sides) become unified. The desire that the person has is a will which is the underlying motivation for his actions. For love to be pure, that desire for unification must be the true underlying motivation for a person’s actions, he can’t have ulterior motives or else like Paul said, “And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.” (1 Corinthians 13:3).
To summarize, this is the definition of love that I will use in this theology:
A will of love is when a person has a will to be unified with the true essence of another person.
Thanks for posting this, Ego. I would add what M. Scott Peck M.D. wrote in his book The Road Less Traveled- that Love is a verb. It’s not a feeling. To paraphrase what I read in his book a long time ago is that Love is action dedicate to the spiritual growth of another human being. It requires action. In fact IIRR Peck writes that there is a time in marriages when feelings of love for your partner go away and it is then at that moment when the person decides to stay that real love happens. I’m sure “of one mind” can be important but the way I read it is when a couple is no longer in unity can real love take place; that’s the time when patience, long suffering begin to take place.

I’m sure lots of people have written about M. Scott Pecks M.D, definition of love. Here are one person’s thoughts:

https://synapseburning.com/2016/10/12/t ... rt-2-love/
I support the right to keep and arm bears.
Ego
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Re: Formal Mormon Theology

Post by Ego »

yellowstone123 wrote:
Sun Jun 01, 2025 7:30 pm
Thanks for posting this, Ego. I would add what M. Scott Peck M.D. wrote in his book The Road Less Traveled- that Love is a verb. It’s not a feeling. To paraphrase what I read in his book a long time ago is that Love is action dedicate to the spiritual growth of another human being. It requires action. In fact IIRR Peck writes that there is a time in marriages when feelings of love for your partner go away and it is then at that moment when the person decides to stay that real love happens. I’m sure “of one mind” can be important but the way I read it is when a couple is no longer in unity can real love take place; that’s the time when patience, long suffering begin to take place.
The purpose of this definition was mainly to show that love is a will. As for real love taking place when there isn’t unity, I don’t think that is quite right. Perhaps they can prove the extent of their love when they aren’t full of hormones making them head over heels for each other, but why would a person be patient and loyal to another? To provide security for them. Why would they want that? Because they would want security and loyalty for themself, and having realized the consciousness of the other, have compassion on them realizing they must want the same, and so provide it. That ability we have, the ‘theory of mind’ as it is called, and the will to improve conditions for others as one would for himself is the will of love, in that is the unity.
I am called Ego because that is what I seek to overcome in myself.
MG 2.0
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Re: Formal Mormon Theology

Post by MG 2.0 »

Ok, gadianton, here's your chance!

This should be an interesting thread to read as you guys go back and forth on Mormon Theology, such as it is.

Regards,
MG
drumdude
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Re: Formal Mormon Theology

Post by drumdude »

Step 1: Follow the Brethren.
Step 2: Follow step 1.

Mormonism is at its core the theological equivalent of the game, Lemmings.
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Gadianton
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Re: Formal Mormon Theology

Post by Gadianton »

I think it's a creative idea to use the Moses scripture as your definition of love, I don't know if that's a KJV classic or not, if not, then even better.

A challenge I see with it is restricting it to God. The likely response is that evil will inevitably betray each other, thus such alliances are temporary conveniences. But the bonds of the righteous aren't infallible. Ideological betrayals are just as significant among good people as they are bad people. Consider the need of experiencing the purest love in order to qualify as a Son of Perdition.

In movies, bad people usually fall out based on simple impulses like greed or lust. But a real monster will be ideological, and two such individuals seeking to be of one mind create love, per the Moses definition.
We can't take farmers and take all their people and send them back because they don't have maybe what they're supposed to have. They get rid of some of the people who have been there for 25 years and they work great and then you throw them out and they're replaced by criminals.
Ego
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Re: Formal Mormon Theology

Post by Ego »

drumdude wrote:
Sun Jun 01, 2025 11:35 pm
Step 1: Follow the Brethren.
Step 2: Follow step 1.

Mormonism is at its core the theological equivalent of the game, Lemmings.
I can’t say I disagree. What is an infinite regression of Gods for example if not the infinite line of simply following the one who came before. Whether there’s a cliff at the end or not… who can say for sure?
I am called Ego because that is what I seek to overcome in myself.
huckelberry
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Re: Formal Mormon Theology

Post by huckelberry »

I think Gadianton put a finger on a significant shortcoming in unity as central to meaning of love. It is not so easy to condense a good direct definition. Some approaches make a list of different kinds of love. Does that just ignore trying to see what is at the heart of the matter? I might propose genuine willing for the best for someone. That allows more variety, perhaps even value to being different and individual. That does not explain degrees of actual commitment to another's good. Perhaps love varies with different relationships. Of course it does.
Mag’ladroth
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Re: Formal Mormon Theology

Post by Mag’ladroth »

Newcomer and amateur philosopher here, but “love” and “pride” etc. are all external forms or realities to the Mormon concept of exalted men and women who became gods. This means these definitions are not grounded in the Mormon theistic metaphysical structure but outside of it. Why this is a problem becomes apparent in a second.

As Mormonism denies creation ex nihilo but posits that Elohim created out of pre-existent material (intelligences, “forms” if you want to go full Platonic) that means that “love” is an eternal law higher and outside of Elohim, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, God #4 in the divine council, etc.

In an infinite regress of gods who became gods by adherence to laws outside of themselves, that means these gods are potent or changeable. Meaning love in that citation of Mormon scripture could change in eternal form meaning Elohim and Jesus could change in accordance to the definitional change.

Love could actually now mean something entirely else in the next 5 minutes per Mormon concepts of changing revelation and gods subject to change and laws outside themselves.

Tl;dr love could change definition on a whim in Mormon theology.
drumdude
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Re: Formal Mormon Theology

Post by drumdude »

Mag’ladroth wrote:
Mon Jun 02, 2025 2:37 am
Newcomer and amateur philosopher here, but “love” and “pride” etc. are all external forms or realities to the Mormon concept of exalted men and women who became gods. This means these definitions are not grounded in the Mormon theistic metaphysical structure but outside of it. Why this is a problem becomes apparent in a second.

As Mormonism denies creation ex nihilo but posits that Elohim created out of pre-existent material (intelligences, “forms” if you want to go full Platonic) that means that “love” is an eternal law higher and outside of Elohim, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, God #4 in the divine council, etc.

In an infinite regress of gods who became gods by adherence to laws outside of themselves, that means these gods are potent or changeable. Meaning love in that citation of Mormon scripture could change in eternal form meaning Elohim and Jesus could change in accordance to the definitional change.

Love could actually now mean something entirely else in the next 5 minutes per Mormon concepts of changing revelation and gods subject to change and laws outside themselves.

Tl;dr love could change definition on a whim in Mormon theology.
Excellent points. And the driving factor for Mormon doctrinal changes is simply expediency. You have folks like Robert Boylan trying to make all the pieces fit like they’re some grand unified coherent theological framework, but in the end it’s all just the whims of Joseph, Brigham, Nelson, etc.

The day Boylan publishes a book piecing it all together, instead of just regurgitating disparate quotes on his blog, will be the day we’re proven wrong.
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