Certain people can't ever get it right

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Lem
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Re: Certain people can't ever get it right

Post by Lem »

Chap wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:52 pm
There is a Chinese expression 'playing the lute to an ox'.
:lol: I still like my caption, but upon investigation, yes, your expression does seem to fit in to this thread rather well!
Chap
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Re: Certain people can't ever get it right

Post by Chap »

Lem wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:40 am
Chap wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:52 pm
There is a Chinese expression 'playing the lute to an ox'.
:lol: I still like my caption, but upon investigation, yes, your expression does seem to fit in to this thread rather well!
Glad you like my metaphor! I hope that it effectively parallels two dimensions of parts of this thread:

1. The ox gains nothing from the activities of the lute player, and carries on chewing grass and from time to time emitting methane from both ends :: The intended reader of (say) Gadianton's elegant, logical and restrained post gains nothing from it, and carries on churning out utterances of his own very distinctive kind.

2. The lute player, on the other hand, has the pleasure of exercising his skill, and hence is motivated to continue playing, despite the lack of appreciation from the ox :: Gadianton has the aesthetic satisfaction of exercising his philosophical skills, and hence is motivated to continue posting, despite the lack of any effect on their intended reader.

Now that's what I call an effective metaphor: a description of a situation in context A whose patterns map in a precise and enlightening way onto a superficially completely different situation in context B.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
mentalgymnast
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Re: Certain people can't ever get it right

Post by mentalgymnast »

Chap wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:59 am
Lem wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:40 am

:lol: I still like my caption, but upon investigation, yes, your expression does seem to fit in to this thread rather well!
Glad you like my metaphor! I hope that it effectively parallels two dimensions of parts of this thread:

1. The ox gains nothing from the activities of the lute player, and carries on chewing grass and from time to time emitting methane from both ends :: The intended reader of (say) Gadianton's elegant, logical and restrained post gains nothing from it, and carries on churning out utterances of his own very distinctive kind.

2. The lute player, on the other hand, has the pleasure of exercising his skill, and hence is motivated to continue playing, despite the lack of appreciation from the ox :: Gadianton has the aesthetic satisfaction of exercising his philosophical skills, and hence is motivated to continue posting, despite the lack of any effect on their intended reader.

Now that's what I call an effective metaphor: a description of a situation in context A whose patterns map in a precise and enlightening way onto a superficially completely different situation in context B.
Excepting for the fact that the settings on your viewfinder are out of whack. I suppose I’m from the impressionist school of thought in that we see reality by stepping back and looking at the greater whole. In order to to that first of all we need to step back. Then we set our viewfinder/lens to wide angle so as to gain perspective that we would fail to appreciate at zoom level. The various ‘pixels’ of the whole blend in to show a greater vista of meaning and purpose than merely zooming in and observing isolated parts.

My earlier metaphor was meant to trigger our thinking towards looking at the world, and Mormonism in particular, from various aspect ratios and focal points rather than relying on one point of view. In that, I apparently didn’t manage to penetrate skulls.

Funny, as I look at your ox and lute player I see/picture the opposite of what your intended meaning is. I’m the lute player and the ox is, well...😉

Regards,
MG
Chap
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Re: Certain people can't ever get it right

Post by Chap »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:24 pm
I suppose I’m from the impressionist school of thought in that we see reality by stepping back and looking at the greater whole. In order to to that first of all we need to step back. Then we set our viewfinder/lens to wide angle so as to gain perspective that we would fail to appreciate at zoom level. The various ‘pixels’ of the whole blend in to show a greater vista of meaning and purpose than merely zooming in and observing isolated parts.
I'd be interested to know what other posters take this to mean.

It seems to me to be an injunction not to look close-up at the many, many ways, long documented on this board and elsewhere, that the truth claims of Mormonism fail to stand up to close scrutiny. We should track back far enough to allow those 'pixels' (or, as a prophet once called them 'little flecks of history') to go out of focus and look at the overall impression of Mormonism seen from a distance, and base our judgment on that.

In other words, don't look too closely at the second-hand car. Don't look closely at the tyres, which are worn and don't match. Don't look closely at the tachometer, which has been 'clocked' to reduce the mileage. Don't look closely at the paintwork, where you will see evidence of rust having been painted over ... and so on. Why if you look too closely with an expert eye you may even be able to detect that this vehicle has been welded together from scrap sections of several car-wrecks. Don't do that! Instead, just stand back and see what a lovely impressive vehicle it is. And pay the salesman what he asks - which is a rather unusual deal in which you have to pay him 10% of your gross income for life.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
Lem
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Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:46 am

Re: Certain people can't ever get it right

Post by Lem »

Chap wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:59 am
Lem wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:40 am

:lol: I still like my caption, but upon investigation, yes, your expression does seem to fit in to this thread rather well!
Glad you like my metaphor! I hope that it effectively parallels two dimensions of parts of this thread:

1. The ox gains nothing from the activities of the lute player, and carries on chewing grass and from time to time emitting methane from both ends :: The intended reader of (say) Gadianton's elegant, logical and restrained post gains nothing from it, and carries on churning out utterances of his own very distinctive kind.

2. The lute player, on the other hand, has the pleasure of exercising his skill, and hence is motivated to continue playing, despite the lack of appreciation from the ox :: Gadianton has the aesthetic satisfaction of exercising his philosophical skills, and hence is motivated to continue posting, despite the lack of any effect on their intended reader.

Now that's what I call an effective metaphor: a description of a situation in context A whose patterns map in a precise and enlightening way onto a superficially completely different situation in context B.
Brilliant!

( After that, Brother Ox's " 'I am round and flat at the same time' which you would all see except every last one of you has a black and white viewfinder with only binary settings.... and also, my viewfinder is now a viewfinder/lens and ONLY I have a wide-angle one..." simply falls.... uh..flat.)

Seriously, though, these metaphor attempts are just getting nuts, so I took a look at the binary thinking book mg has been reading, and sure enough, topics include:

--Sorities Paradox
But presented as a categorization issue, NOT a comment on infinity.

--Viewfinder Principle
This chapter starts with the 'earth is round and flat' quote, but talks about looking closely vs. taking a larger view. A view which mg has now switched to, but is not the way he earlier presented it.

--Earth is round and flat quote
See above, again not used as mg tried to shoehorn it into the discussion.

--Etc. Etc. Etc.

This is pretty embarrassing, but I don't blame him for wanting to talk about what he reads, just the fact that he disingenuously tries to shoehorn every little thing into a discussion about how HE chooses RIGHT because he follows the Mormon church, and how EVERYONE ELSE HERE is of one and the same singular, secularist, Anti-Mormon, and now binary, black-and-white-thinking, bad viewfinder-setting group, all of which choose WRONGLY.

in my opinion, that's why his discussions go so badly, he is literally just here to provoke a group he thinks is different from Mormons and therefore inferior. Any cogency in his argument is completely secondary to that goal.

It does give insight into this mindset, though, which can be helpful in dealing with people like that. Sadly, I doubt he's the only one to approach the world with this Mormon vs. non-Mormon, All GOOD vs. All BAD approach. It's what makes Peterson's 'inclusivity' articles not quite ring true.
mentalgymnast
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Re: Certain people can't ever get it right

Post by mentalgymnast »

Lem wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:02 pm

This is pretty embarrassing, but I don't blame him for wanting to talk about what he reads...
I think that’s pretty common, bringing in thoughts and ideas that we come across as we read. Especially as we my see some relevance. Thanks for pointing this out. Yes, ideas trigger further thinking and application.

Surprise!

Not embarrassed.

Regards,
MG
mentalgymnast
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Re: Certain people can't ever get it right

Post by mentalgymnast »

Lem wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:02 pm
Sadly, I doubt he's the only one to approach the world with this Mormon vs. non-Mormon...
Sounds like I’m being ‘lumped in’ to a pigeon hole again. C’mon Lemming. Just like most human beings, including yourself, we are multifaceted in the ways we approach various aspects of our lives. Yes, some folks might be more hyper religious or hyper non religious than others.

I can tell you that I don’t view the world as Mormon vs. non Mormon. Far from it.

Here on this board we do tend to accentuate those differences.

Hey, I subscribe to National Geographic and the Smithsonian. Does that count for anything? 🙂

But I do think that metaphors and their application to the real world can help us along as we try to find meaning, purpose, and truth.

If I find some connection between metaphor and what I see in the world, including the people I observe in it, I think that’s OK. You don’t have to accept the settings on my viewfinder, and that’s OK too.

Regards,
MG
mentalgymnast
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Re: Certain people can't ever get it right

Post by mentalgymnast »

Lem wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:02 pm

Seriously, though, these metaphor attempts are just getting nuts...
Some folks respond to metaphorical thinking and application differently than others.

Regards,
MG
mentalgymnast
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Re: Certain people can't ever get it right

Post by mentalgymnast »

Lem wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:02 pm
I took a look at the binary thinking book mg has been reading...
Black-and-White Thinking: The Burden of a Binary Brain in a Complex World
by Kevin Dutton

I hope you enjoy it as much as I am. Upthread I linked to a conversation Dutton had with Michael Shermer who may be familiar to many here.

Good stuff!

Regards,
MG
Chap
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Re: Certain people can't ever get it right

Post by Chap »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:58 pm
Lem wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:02 pm

Seriously, though, these metaphor attempts are just getting nuts...
Some folks respond to metaphorical thinking and application differently than others.
Some people construct metaphors that actually do model the thing their users are trying to talk about, and some don't. Your ''round/flat' metaphor is an example of one that doesn't function well, at least not as you apply it.

There may others that might work better, but it's not my job to provide them for you.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
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