Shout Out to Shulem!

[Lem]

Speaking of eyewitnesses, in looking at this situation, Shulem, apologists argue two eyewitnesses said the missing head character was a priest holding a knife. Being a good student of our favorite historian grindael, I looked at the footnotes, and followed the references back.

I don't know why I am surprised, but guess what I found?

1. First 'eyewitness' wrote his account in 1848, and backdated it to 1841. Even byu article admits this, but only in one appendix, which admits the entry in question contains, almost word for word, a times and seasons article from 1842 with B of A paragraphs, and his 'eyewitness' matches, almost word for word, the description of the evil priest with a knife in the same times and seasons article.

2. Second 'eyewitness' wrote a book about a visit to Nauvoo, 1842 . His 'eyewitness' account is actually a quote from a storekeeper, telling him the story, showing him 'glazed slides' of the papyrus! He is quoting what the storekeeper says the slides mean, but apologists quote his quote, and call it an 'eyewitness' account.

This dishonesty is jarring, but in my experience, not uncommon at all in mopologetics. Sadly.

[Shulem]

Yes. The secondary penciling appears, to me, to be over the glue and over the straight lines, which I’m guessing were there before the papyrus was glued onto the paper.

[X] Doctor CamNC4Me = Graphite penciling OVER the glue

Thank you for your observation. Let me know if you have additional insight or wish to change your mind. You can also observe other adjoining fragments (FROM THE HOR SCROLL) and cut from the same backing paper as discussed in Muhlestein's article linked in my above post. You can observe how the glue effected both paper and papyrus and how portions of papyrus deteriorated and came off the paper in modern times.

1st JSP X Fragment


2nd JSP X1 Fragment


3rd JSP 1 Fragment (Facsimile No. 1)


Why is this all important? It just is. This is not trivia. Trust me, I'm Shulem, and my gut tells me this is very important. Very important!

[Shulem]

Thank you for that information above, my dear sweet, Lem! All this is being taking into account and I will meld it with all information that I have.

I have a feeling that the glue is more important than any of us ever realized.

More to come.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Yeah, I actually went through the entire scroll, front and back - that’s where I learned the word ‘versos’ and also learned about all the different sketches on the backside of these papers. It was after a hard look at all the screen grabs, and then a third and fourth look at JSP1 I came to my conclusion.

I’m tellin’ ya. The arms were drawn as bones, not just poor renderings of arms. I believe that whoever drew that man drew it that way because whatever character they believed they were drawing in the moment they believed him to be dead. It makes me wonder if they did, in fact, have some knowledge of what they were trying to reconstruct. Take that along with the fairly irrefutable fact you discovered about Anubis’ nose being chiseled off, and I’m starting to believe Joseph Smith knew what this scroll was, and only changed the narrative later to fit in with his emerging fanciful tales found in the Book of Abraham.

- Doc

[Lem]

Thank you for that information above, my dear sweet, Lem! All this is being taking into account and I will meld it with all information that I have.

I have a feeling that the glue is more important than any of us ever realized.

More to come.

You're welcome! I'm sure you already knew that, but the number of times mopologists fudge a reference still shocks me. Unbelievable. No wonder few of them send their work for outside peer review.

[Shulem]

I’m tellin’ ya. The arms were drawn as bones, not just poor renderings of arms. I believe that whoever drew that man drew it that way because whatever character they believed they were drawing in the moment they believed him to be dead. It makes me wonder if they did, in fact, have some knowledge of what they were trying to reconstruct. Take that along with the fairly irrefutable fact you discovered about Anubis’ nose being chiseled off, and I’m starting to believe Joseph Smith knew what this scroll was, and only changed the narrative later to fit in with his emerging fanciful tales found in the Book of Abraham.

- Doc

Cam-baby, I could just kiss you! You're stirring me up dude. You'll recall that Napoleon Bonaparte led an invasion into Egypt which ultimately led to the Egyptomania craze throughout Europe and eventually to America. Napoleon took an army of artists to record everything they could about ancient Egypt, to include tomb scenes and works of religions art. These artists were instrumental in bringing ancient Egypt into western culture:

Jean Baptiste Prosper Jollois
Edouard de Villiers du Terrace
Edmé François Jomard
Louis-Pierre Baltard
François-Charles Cécile
Charles-Louis Balzac
Jean-Baptiste Lepère
André Dutertre
Nicholas-Jacques Conté
Henri-Joseph Redouté
Dominique Vivant Denon

You can bet that images of Osiris on the lion couch were brought back to the United States and that along with an understanding (passed down by the Greeks) of the Osiris myth, they had a rudimentary understanding of Osiris rising from the dead. That information made it into the Masonic order and I posted a photo of that earlier and will now post it again below. Imagery of Osiris must have been known to someone in Smith's circle of influence. Certainly!

[Shulem]

it appears the upper arms are drawn as the humerus. Has there been any discussion anywhere that the JSP 1 was originally interpreted as such that the ‘person’ was considered dead already? Something is definitely going on there with the arms being depicted as bones.

- Doc

I've seen this discussed in the past a long time ago. I have nothing to reference at this time and can't remember the source where such conversations took place. Where the hell is Philo Sofee? He'd be the one to know and remember.

Philo, dude, what's up with it? Are you passed out somewhere?

Jesus.

[Shulem]

Doctor CamNC4Me,

Perhaps the sketch artist wanted to include more dry bones while figuring the fingers were dry bones in themselves. Could it be that the sketch artist simply wanted to match the finger bones? Provide more bones?

A shoulder bone.
An arm bone.
A hand bone.

Now hear the word of the Lord.

Sing along everyone:

Toe bone connected to the foot bone
Foot bone connected to the heel bone
Heel bone connected to the ankle bone
. . . .

[Shulem]

Doctor CamNC4Me,

On a serious note, I think you may very well be right. They look like bones to me. The distinct lines and curves are depicting bones, perhaps coming to life magically by the power of the person hovering over the altar. Anyone in Smith's day who knew anything about ancient Egypt must have heard the story of Osiris being resurrected by Anubis in the presence of Isis. The myth is just as well known as that of Jesus being raised from the dead in Jerusalem.

It certainly looks like the artist was drawing bones and may have well been thinking of the Osiris scene rising from the dead -- KNOWN to the Masons!

Kerry, where the hell are you? RFM, this looks like a new story in the making. The apologists are now going to have to deal with Abraham's bones? This is cutting edge stuff because it is being taken to new levels. And let's not forget about the glue thingy....

[consiglieri]

Just got off the phone with Professor Hauglid. As one who has examined the papyrus up close and personal, it is his opinion the pencil is OVER the glue.

So clear is this in his mind, he has wondered whether the pencil was drawn there as late as the 20th Century.

While the dating of the pencil marks is pure speculation, it is his opinion that whenever the pencil marks were drawn, it was sometime AFTER the glued piece came off.

He also mentioned there was a lot of time and opportunity for papyri pieces to come off naturally between 1835 and 1842 and lots of moving going on between Ohio and Missouri and Illinois.