Religion is dead...how can Mormonism survive?

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dastardly stem
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Re: Religion is dead...how can Mormonism survive?

Post by dastardly stem »

Ok so taking a different track on Mormonism...what if Mormon God is in his own universe? There is the possibility of a multiverse after all. So God, sits in an advanced universe on the lone planet within that universe housing life. If so, what of all those who once lived mortally on that planet who also became exalted? Do they live as lower level beings subject to him, or did he as the pre-eminent one acquire their old world for him and his servants and minions, while the other exalted into the highest level folks got transported to other universes to play the same roll as he? If not, then are we to assume that really only one person from our planet will get high enough to be God like our God is?

Is there any way to tease out Mormonism in a reasonable way?
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Craig Paxton
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Re: Religion is dead...how can Mormonism survive?

Post by Craig Paxton »

dastardly stem wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:50 pm
Ok so taking a different track on Mormonism...what if Mormon God is in his own universe? There is the possibility of a multiverse after all. So God, sits in an advanced universe on the lone planet within that universe housing life. If so, what of all those who once lived mortally on that planet who also became exalted? Do they live as lower level beings subject to him, or did he as the pre-eminent one acquire their old world for him and his servants and minions, while the other exalted into the highest level folks got transported to other universes to play the same roll as he? If not, then are we to assume that really only one person from our planet will get high enough to be God like our God is?

Is there any way to tease out Mormonism in a reasonable way?
Mormonism always has an apologetic escape hatch....because after all despite any evidence to the contrary...it's true
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Philo Sofee
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Re: Religion is dead...how can Mormonism survive?

Post by Philo Sofee »

dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:36 pm
Philo Sofee wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:22 pm

Oh it's always good when things are hashed out. Reason hashes out everything's faults, since everything has faults. Heck, religion itself hammers on its own faults, that's perhaps why it is thriving in so many areas in the world. Everything waxes and wanes, largely due to, I suspect, the very nature of our reality. We don't get to see the whole, and as particulars are revealed as we learn, so are things concealed simply because we have never been able to grasp the whole. We understand this for the most part. The cool thing is there is always something else to discover.
Yes, once reason defeats something and demonstrates its not viable, then we can easily dismiss that thing. In spades traditional religions have been shown to be not viable, as a matter of probability. As we learn more and apply what we observe more and more, that which was so precious (and of course still is to most) loses meaning and purpose. We need to maintain that adaptability and that means dropping the arrogance of religious preeminence.
In spades eh? I'll let that one slide... religious experience simply cannot be proven not viable. Experience is not up for investigation other than in the person with the experience. It is why nothing will ever truly refute religious experience and spirituality. It has nothing to do with logic. Experience does not rest on science and logic. The preeminence of religion in politics certainly does need to be examined and challenged, without question. But this has truly nothing to do with actual personal experience.

Sam Harris, yes, one of the four horsemen of the New Atheism, has demonstrated that, to use his own words in his new book, "Our world is dangerously riven by religious doctrines that all educated people should condemn, and yet there is more to understanding the human condition than science and secular culture generally admit." He further elaborates that it is entirely and desirable to have and improve one's spirituality! "Although my focus is on human subjectivity - I am, after all, talking about the nature of experience itself - all my assertions can be tested in the laboratory of your own life. In fact, my goal is to encourage you to do just that." (Sam Harris, "Waking Up," Simon & Schuster, 2014: 6-7). He even almost heinously proposes "There is a connection between scientific fact and spiritual wisdom, and it is more direct than most people suppose." (p. 8). "It is quite possible to lose one's sense of being a separate self and to experience a kind of boundless, open awareness - to feel, in other words, at one with the cosmos." (p. 43).

His entire premise is simple. The mystics say meditate and improve one's spirituality and life, and they were right. Meditation leads to increased spirituality, and Sam Harris has done so, and now so testifies it is accurate and a true description. The final say so against religion is not final, it's not even a decent say so against it. Sam Harris doesn't think so, and neither do I.
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Re: Religion is dead...how can Mormonism survive?

Post by Physics Guy »

It does currently seem as though the universe will expand forever, though our conclusions on this kind of subject are obviously not the most solid in science. It’s important to realize, though, that cosmological expansion is only about the really big picture. Inside any galaxy there’s enough gravity to hold things together. It’s the big voids between galaxies that will keep getting wider. Galaxies will hang together much as they are, and one of them is unimaginably huge.

So the end scenario is really not about cosmic expansion but just thermodynamics, as the great wound-up spring of low-entropy initial conditions slowly runs down. Stars burn out, and fewer new stars replace them, until only cold dwarf stars and black holes fill the sky. Planets freeze, and life ceases.

At least, life as we know it. I remember an analysis by Freeman Dyson arguing that life could persist at arbitrarily low energy scales by just becoming arbitrarily slow. As I recall his conclusion, however, even when you figured in such an ever-increasing slowness, there would remain an infinite amount of subjective time for conscious life. So eternity might still be real within the physical universe.

I don’t know whether Dyson’s argument has been criticized. This stuff isn’t my field.
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Re: Religion is dead...how can Mormonism survive?

Post by Moksha »

Physics Guy wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:23 am
Stars burn out, and fewer new stars replace them, until only cold dwarf stars and black holes fill the sky. Planets freeze, and life ceases.
Couldn't the newly minted Gods from the Priesthood Distribution System simply place hydrogen fountains from higher-energy dimensions with the failing stars they wish to save?
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dastardly stem
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Re: Religion is dead...how can Mormonism survive?

Post by dastardly stem »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:26 am
In spades eh? I'll let that one slide... religious experience simply cannot be proven not viable. Experience is not up for investigation other than in the person with the experience. It is why nothing will ever truly refute religious experience and spirituality. It has nothing to do with logic. Experience does not rest on science and logic. The preeminence of religion in politics certainly does need to be examined and challenged, without question. But this has truly nothing to do with actual personal experience.

Sam Harris, yes, one of the four horsemen of the New Atheism, has demonstrated that, to use his own words in his new book, "Our world is dangerously riven by religious doctrines that all educated people should condemn, and yet there is more to understanding the human condition than science and secular culture generally admit." He further elaborates that it is entirely and desirable to have and improve one's spirituality! "Although my focus is on human subjectivity - I am, after all, talking about the nature of experience itself - all my assertions can be tested in the laboratory of your own life. In fact, my goal is to encourage you to do just that." (Sam Harris, "Waking Up," Simon & Schuster, 2014: 6-7). He even almost heinously proposes "There is a connection between scientific fact and spiritual wisdom, and it is more direct than most people suppose." (p. 8). "It is quite possible to lose one's sense of being a separate self and to experience a kind of boundless, open awareness - to feel, in other words, at one with the cosmos." (p. 43).

THanks for the quotes and the thought. I recall reading that book and your mention of it reminded me of this:
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
dastardly stem
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Re: Religion is dead...how can Mormonism survive?

Post by dastardly stem »

What the hell? I just wrote up a huge long post in response to Philo and it disappeared as I hit submit. ugh...now I have to go back and re-write.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
dastardly stem
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Re: Religion is dead...how can Mormonism survive?

Post by dastardly stem »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:26 am


In spades eh? I'll let that one slide... religious experience simply cannot be proven not viable. Experience is not up for investigation other than in the person with the experience. It is why nothing will ever truly refute religious experience and spirituality. It has nothing to do with logic. Experience does not rest on science and logic. The preeminence of religion in politics certainly does need to be examined and challenged, without question. But this has truly nothing to do with actual personal experience.

Sam Harris, yes, one of the four horsemen of the New Atheism, has demonstrated that, to use his own words in his new book, "Our world is dangerously riven by religious doctrines that all educated people should condemn, and yet there is more to understanding the human condition than science and secular culture generally admit." He further elaborates that it is entirely and desirable to have and improve one's spirituality! "Although my focus is on human subjectivity - I am, after all, talking about the nature of experience itself - all my assertions can be tested in the laboratory of your own life. In fact, my goal is to encourage you to do just that." (Sam Harris, "Waking Up," Simon & Schuster, 2014: 6-7). He even almost heinously proposes "There is a connection between scientific fact and spiritual wisdom, and it is more direct than most people suppose." (p. 8). "It is quite possible to lose one's sense of being a separate self and to experience a kind of boundless, open awareness - to feel, in other words, at one with the cosmos." (p. 43).

His entire premise is simple. The mystics say meditate and improve one's spirituality and life, and they were right. Meditation leads to increased spirituality, and Sam Harris has done so, and now so testifies it is accurate and a true description. The final say so against religion is not final, it's not even a decent say so against it. Sam Harris doesn't think so, and neither do I.
Take 2 (this one is shorter): ugh....

your mention of Waking Up reminded me of this:
Joseph Smith a lubidinous conman and crackpot was able to found a new religion on the claim that he unearthed the final revelations of God in the hallowed precincts of Manchestor, NY. Written in "reformed Egyptian" on golden plates. He decoded this text with the aid of magical seer stones which whether magic or not allowed Smith to produce an english version of God's word that was an embarrassing pastiche of plagiarism from the Bible and silly lies about Jesus' life in America. And yet the resulting nonsense of edifice and taboos survives to this day.
That was a brief mention of Mormonism in that book. Sorry for the aside, but I had the quote handy and your mention reminded me.

Anyway, I agree with him. I think you've smuggled in religion needlessly, as Sam Harris' point, as I took is, was to suggest we need no religion nor no God belief in order to have spiritual experience and enjoy a spiritual life. I agree with him on that. And to me this feels like a brief travel down the path of a distraction from the points I was focused on. But it's a good one and an interesting one. I'd agree with the way Harris puts it--"there is a connection between scientific fact and spiritual wisdom". I don't think it means on the basis of spiritual experience we can determine any God exists nor any religion is true. The problem with spiritual experience on this point is, they are personal, subjective, and wrought with biased interprtation and conclusion. One man's spiritual experience may mean to him that his religion is true, and he must join a war to fight off infidels. Another man's might mean to him that God showers him with grace and fortune beyond others in his way or view.

To travel a bit down this path, I'm going to be stupidly vulnerable and personal here. I had a spiritual experience recently. It was a terrible one that shook me. I saw the devil. He threatened me, hovering over me stuttering in motion back and forth, getting near to me and then moving away. He needed me to acknowledge he existed. I refused and he got more terrible and menacing. I grew more and more terrified until finally I cried out that he was real. He faded away and I shook myself free from the vision-state, similar to what I imagine Martin Harris felt as he cried out "it is enough" acting his part of the 3 witnesses. The difference for me is, I don't think I"m on a special misison based on this experience. I think it was my mind, filled with images, input and memories carrying me, if you will, into a spiritual experience to teach me something or make me aware of something. I don't conclude there's a devil or a god based on this. It perhaps provided me a lesson or feeling I needed. And that's up to me to decide. But again, its all a matter of interpretation. I don't think it's a good move to take a spiritual experience and conclude God or the religion, that shows all signs of problems when it comes to being true, is true or God-inspired.

Thanks for the comments. I think I can agree with your overall point even if we disagree about something here. I feel like we're talking two different things, even if they relate in some ways. Also, I'm reminded of the need to remain humble in acknowledging there is plenty we don't know. Like, I don't know there's no God at all...even if it seems like all explanations run afowl of what we observe, or contradict sound reasoning, I can say it's still possible.

Shorter...maybe a little sweeter this time.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
dastardly stem
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Re: Religion is dead...how can Mormonism survive?

Post by dastardly stem »

look at that....son of a bitch...it worked this time.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
dastardly stem
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Re: Religion is dead...how can Mormonism survive?

Post by dastardly stem »

Physics Guy wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:23 am
It does currently seem as though the universe will expand forever, though our conclusions on this kind of subject are obviously not the most solid in science. It’s important to realize, though, that cosmological expansion is only about the really big picture. Inside any galaxy there’s enough gravity to hold things together. It’s the big voids between galaxies that will keep getting wider. Galaxies will hang together much as they are, and one of them is unimaginably huge.

So the end scenario is really not about cosmic expansion but just thermodynamics, as the great wound-up spring of low-entropy initial conditions slowly runs down. Stars burn out, and fewer new stars replace them, until only cold dwarf stars and black holes fill the sky. Planets freeze, and life ceases.

At least, life as we know it. I remember an analysis by Freeman Dyson arguing that life could persist at arbitrarily low energy scales by just becoming arbitrarily slow. As I recall his conclusion, however, even when you figured in such an ever-increasing slowness, there would remain an infinite amount of subjective time for conscious life. So eternity might still be real within the physical universe.

I don’t know whether Dyson’s argument has been criticized. This stuff isn’t my field.
I appreciate this clarification. Very interesting thanks.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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