John Gee leaves bizarre message as he steps down from editorship, also his inappropriate Ritner review

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Lem
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Re: John Gee leaves bizarre message as he steps down from editorship, also his inappropriate Ritner review

Post by Lem »

Dr Moore wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:00 am
Lem wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:33 pm
Regarding a more respectful manner, I see your comment was addressed to the Reverend, so I hope you won't mind an additional response. The debate between the two did get heated, and you have a point, in my opinion mostly because going back and reading after the fact, it's easy to see how the exchanges can be interpreted as off-putting, which may take away some of the weight of the arguments for some people. Given both sides were giving as good as they got, it seemed unavoidable that it would spiral. I do appreciate that Jenkins would every so often acknowledge that they were going at it, but in his mind it was over factual positions, and people's faith positions were not on the table for discussion, mockery or otherwise.
Exactly. I can’t find the linked post(s), but at more than one juncture Jenkins pulled up to note that matters of faith were not on the table, and that if the basis for Hamblin’s belief in the Book of Mormon were spiritual only, that he respected the position and had no desire to counter. It is the very fact that Mormon apologists feel compelled to wade out into scholarship to justify their beliefs which openly invites criticism from outside (non LDS) scholars. Not merely risks criticism, but invites it.
Invites it, yes. In looking back at some of the exchanges, I saw something that probably didn't mean much to me the first go-round, but makes more sense now. One of Hamblin's earliest posts mentioned that the Maxwell Institute couldn't be counted on to put up a defense, now that the FARMS people were out. And then Midgley weighed in....
Response to Jenkins
June 10, 2015 William Hamblin

I had planned to respond to some of the more uninformed claims and criticisms of Philip Jenkins on the Book of Mormon.

But then I thought, BYU and the Church have the Maxwell Institute and the Religious Studies Center with more than a dozen full-time people who could respond.  Why should I?


[comment section:]
• Louis Midgley •

This is an odd item from one perspective. Professor Hamblin declines to do his duty because others neglect this same duty. I will grant that the paid professionals that Professor Hamblin mentions may not be either inclined or able to respond to the silly remarks that Jenkins has made concerning the Book of Mormon. Or,,in some instances, they may be busy fashioning responses to other even odd remarks about the Book of Mormon.

In the case of the Maxwell Institute, it is possible that some, but not all, are now in thrall to the idea that the academic standard has been raised so high that they no longer care to pay attention to the remarks make by Jenkins about the founding text of the Book of Mormon. They may also have been lured into thinking that by confronting such opinions, they will surrender the credibility with scholars such as Jenkins that they crave and even see as their primary business. I have even heard it said that LDS historians ought to now cease defending the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon. The reason is, so some claim, is that to not treat it as merely a 19th century text written by Joseph Smith out of ideas floating around his environment, would be to surrender credibility with non-LDS scholars.

At some point this is an issue that must be address directly, or we are doomed to go down the road taken by what is now called the Community of Christ (RLDS). My own opinion is that the desire for popularity with an unbelieving world is a mistake. One cannot serve two masters. But, if others, for whatever reason, will not see it as either their duty or a necessity, to defend the primary foundational text of their faith, that should not deter others from doing so.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/enigmatic ... o-jenkins/
But by the 14th of that month, Hamblin had apparently reconsidered:
I am planning to write a series of responses to Jenkins’ attacks on the Book of Mormon.  I said I wasn’t going to in order to goad the Maxwell Institute at bit.  Classic FARMS would have organized a systematic response to Jenkins.  The “New” Maxwell Institute will not.  Enough said.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/enigmatic ... jenkins-1/
I'm hoping hamblin didn't get talked into this by Midgley, et. al., to somehow continue the beef the mopologists have with what he called the 'New' Maxwell Institute. If so, he paid a heavy price, and his fellow mopologists were nowhere to be found.
Lem
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Re: John Gee leaves bizarre message as he steps down from editorship, also his inappropriate Ritner review

Post by Lem »

Wrapping this up by coming back to the OP topic of Gee and Ritner, I just wanted to bring over a post from our old board that sheds some light on the question discussed upthread of whether Ritner should or should not have offered his opinion on his student's interpretation of papyri. One opinion was that is was 'punching down', and considered inappropriate. Here is another view that adds to the conversation.

Post is dated August 24,2020, in a thread started by Symmachus:

...Then Ritner jumps into the Book of Abraham debate, partly because of what he perceives to be the errant nonsense of someone who was his former student. Remember, American Egyptology has long had a hand in this question. Ritner is not acting out or doing something unjust. Egyptologists were always going to say that Joseph Smith could not translate Egyptian because that is what the evidence clearly points to. Gee is incensed that his former professor would insert himself against Gee's work. In anger, he lashes out at Ritner and takes whatever perceptions of being wronged public in various veiled accusations and insinuations delivered by associates. Ritner, it is claimed, was a bad guy. Ritner was "removed from Gee's committee" for being a bad guy.

I do not know that this is what happened. But this is my read based on my experience of a number of other, similar situations I have personally observed as a student, a graduate student, and as an academic. I see nothing in anything I have been told that suggests to me that Ritner did something unprofessional or wrong in Gee's case. I think it is very likely that Ritner was impatient with Gee and was not really thrilled to deal with the oddball wearing the "Hugh Nibley fan" t-shirts. I have run into more than one ancient historian who was similarly not enthused about dealing with Nibley fans.

Here's the deal: If you make such an accusation against a former professor, you'd better have good cause. It was a very bad idea to trot out the weak accusations and insinuations we have seen from Gee's associates. They have only hurt Gee and his associates. They have only hurt BYU and the Church. Mostly they have hurt Gee. I have also seen the student whose wounded pride led him to lash out repeatedly at a senior scholar at the top of his field on the basis of allegedly unfair treatment in graduate school. Grad school is rough. Professors are not always great guys. I can see all of this. But I can tell you that it usually takes something pretty severe to result in any official reprimand of a tenured faculty member.

If you don't have that kind of issue, the best thing to do is get over it, especially if you have your degree in hand and your dream job. The people I have seen hang on to these things were the ones who were left without secure, permanent employment. Sure, the cases like Gee's might moan to you about Professor X late at night after a rough day at the conference, but they sure as hell don't bring these moans to a scholarly disagreement over the interpretation of ancient evidence.

Imagine the following scenario. You're at a conference. Prof. R gets up and delivers a talk that corrects the errors a former student made in a series of articles that the student published over the years. Dr. G, the former student, gets up at the same conference and says, "Oh yeah? Well, you left my dissertation committee! What right have you to correct my work in accordance with the standards of our field? You're only doing this because you hate me!" I think everyone would look on in silent disbelief, feeling very sorry for Dr. G.

"You're a big meanie!" is beside the point. What about the evidence, Dr. G? What about the standards of the field? Dr G, you started a conversation on the basis of bringing a certain expertise to the table, aren't you the one who invited others with the same expertise to comment on your conclusions? If you don't want this to be about our discipline, then keep our discipline out of it? If you can't do that, then be prepared to defend your interpretations and conclusions. "My old professor is a mean guy" is not cutting it.

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... =1&t=53732
In the OP of that thread, Symmachus makes some rather prescient remarks about the state of apologetics:
....Apologetics will be on the offensive again, but to judge from Seariac, Kwaku, and Smoot, it will be primarily about advancing a particular version of Mormon identity, and it will have a different target. Ritner's podcast on the Book of Abraham isn't as emotionally satisfying as Jenkins' takedown of the Book of Mormon, but I think its effects will go much deeper, because from here on out the apologists are going to go for easier targets. John Gee obviously feels Jana Riess is much easier than Robert Ritner, which is to say that "easier targets" means other Mormons.

So I can't help but wonder if this is all that we're going to get from the apologists from here on out, and whether this shift to a blatantly identitarian apologetics portends a breakdown of social cohesion within the Church.
hauslern
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Re: John Gee leaves bizarre message as he steps down from editorship, also his inappropriate Ritner review

Post by hauslern »

I wonder what Gee thinks of the work of Tamas Mekis an Egyptologist from Hungary. Here is his opinions of facsimile 3.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hy4 ... OJ5qM/edit

He has written a paper on hypocephalus
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Fc7 ... t3DDc/edit

So many of the figures are common on all hypocephalus.

"So in my opinion, in Facsimile 3 the human head of the black bodied god is again a modern addition to the ancient papyrus. "
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Shulem
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Location: Facsimile No. 3

Re: John Gee leaves bizarre message as he steps down from editorship, also his inappropriate Ritner review

Post by Shulem »

hauslern wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:25 pm
I wonder what Gee thinks of the work of Tamas Mekis an Egyptologist from Hungary. Here is his opinions of facsimile 3.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hy4 ... OJ5qM/edit

"So in my opinion, in Facsimile 3 the human head of the black bodied god is again a modern addition to the ancient papyrus. "

John Gee is living a lie. He's accepted his position and role at BYU for what it is and fully knows that he can't answer many of the direct questions that disprove Smith's translations of Facsimile No. 3. Gee hides behind a BYU paycheck and benefits while continuing to produce apologetic material that are little more than distractions and dishonest presentations to fool the members into thinking the thinking has already been done.

What Gee doesn't understand is how his legacy will ultimately play out in the future, especially after he's gone. His name and apologetics will be remembered as a circus act. The poor man sold his soul for a mess of pottage.

He's more than welcome to discuss Facsimile No. 3 with me, right here on Mormon Discussions. But believe me, I'm his worst nightmare. Oh my, conversations between Gee and me in a debate format would light this board up. Can you imagine what would happen? Oh, I can.

Shulem
Lem
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Re: John Gee leaves bizarre message as he steps down from editorship, also his inappropriate Ritner review

Post by Lem »

Shulem wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:31 am
hauslern wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:25 pm
I wonder what Gee thinks of the work of Tamas Mekis an Egyptologist from Hungary. Here is his opinions of facsimile 3.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hy4 ... OJ5qM/edit

"So in my opinion, in Facsimile 3 the human head of the black bodied god is again a modern addition to the ancient papyrus. "

John Gee is living a lie. He's accepted his position and role at BYU for what it is and fully knows that he can't answer many of the direct questions that disprove Smith's translations of Facsimile No. 3. Gee hides behind a BYU paycheck and benefits while continuing to produce apologetic material that are little more than distractions and dishonest presentations to fool the members into thinking the thinking has already been done.

What Gee doesn't understand is how his legacy will ultimately play out in the future, especially after he's gone. His name and apologetics will be remembered as a circus act. The poor man sold his soul for a mess of pottage.

He's more than welcome to discuss Facsimile No. 3 with me, right here on Mormon Discussions. But believe me, I'm his worst nightmare. Oh my, conversations between Gee and me in a debate format would light this board up. Can you imagine what would happen? Oh, I can.

Shulem
That would definitely be a debate for the ages!
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